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-   -   Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools? (http://www.autobanter.com/showthread.php?t=439982)

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 01:48 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).


Clare Snyder February 18th 18 02:43 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
> wrote:

>Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
>whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
>km).
>
>First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.
>
>Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg


Yes, they are there from the factory.
>I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
>make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
>If so, why?
>
>Third question is related to this combination pictu
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg


>Where this question is a combination question of:
>a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?


To make it fit in the jack bag
>b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
>bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
>shown?


The Micrometer adjusting "click" is easier to use.
>c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
>removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
>it.)

A "speed handle" is very handy for spinning nuts on and off after
breaking them loose and before torquing. I still use mine a lot. - not
just for wheel nuts,
>And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
>d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
>bar?


No.
>
>Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
>the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
>4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
>each of the front tires.
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg
>
>That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
>was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg


Looks like a small staple.
>
>The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
>always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
>of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
>out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
>each tire rotation)?
>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg
>
>In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
>better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).



You are best to rotate only front to back on MOST vehicles -and MUST
do so with "directional" tires.

In over 40 years Ihave NEVER done side to side rotations. (and I'm a
mechanic)

Dean Hoffman[_5_] February 18th 18 02:49 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 2/17/18 6:48 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
> whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
> km).


Four thousand miles? Why so often? Is that what the owner's
manual
recommends?

Ed Pawlowski February 18th 18 03:40 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 2/17/2018 8:43 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

>
>
> You are best to rotate only front to back on MOST vehicles -and MUST
> do so with "directional" tires.
>
> In over 40 years Ihave NEVER done side to side rotations. (and I'm a
> mechanic)
>


I knowof people that have done side to side on car with different size
front and back, but it seems about useless.

I also rotate with oil changes at 7500. IMO, 4000 is a bit too soon but
if you have the time and engergy . . .

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 07:39 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> Four thousand miles? Why so often? Is that what the owner's
> manual recommends?


There is no doubt that 4K miles is the correct number because the alignment
is correct and the front tires get a palpable feathering on the outside
edges after about 4K miles.

It's been reliable, as this is the fourth rotation of these tires, and the
same thing happens every single time, where I've actually been doing it not
by mileage but by the feeling of the tires - but when I write down the
miles, it's just about every 4K miles.

The roads are very windy for miles at below 20 mph and very steep.

Peter Hill[_2_] February 18th 18 10:35 AM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18-Feb-18 12:48 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
> whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
> km).
>
> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses. You can always
rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
space to swing the bar is tight.

Fredxx February 18th 18 01:37 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 01:43, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
> > wrote:
>
>> Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
>> whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
>> km).
>>
>> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

>
> The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
> impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
> fine motion is required.
>>
>> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

>
> Yes, they are there from the factory.


Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 05:49 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
> the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
> using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
> you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
> don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.


The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 05:57 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

>
> The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
> concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
> It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.


That makes sense! So the rounded corners take the 'stress' off the nut and
the rounded corner also takes the stress off from the potential for a
hairline crack of the socket wall?

> A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses.


I was wondering if a 12-point is "weaker" than a 6 point?
Is at 6 point stronger, weaker, or the same stress on a nut/socket as a 12
point?

> You can always
> rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
> space to swing the bar is tight.


I never thought of that!
The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?

Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point
socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th ---
but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the
half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?

Robin[_5_] February 18th 18 05:59 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 16:49, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
>> the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
>> using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
>> you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
>> don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

>
> The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
> have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
> to fit face to face.
>
> Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
> twist the other where they should both show the same torque.
>
> That only "tests" them.
> I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
> And you have to "adjust" them if they are.
>
> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
>


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:00 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>>First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>>(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>>1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>>2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>>3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

>
> The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
> impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
> fine motion is required.


This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
reasons, right?
1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the
nuts and the socket itself).
2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:04 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
>>

>
> Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
> distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.


On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:06 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point
> probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety
> factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot
> more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen
> a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?


That's what I was wondering but I didn't know why.

Does a 12-point tend to round nuts more than a 6 point?

Why?

Is it because there's more force against the nut's point?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:10 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
> tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
> different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
> can be applied using each one.


I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:11 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>>> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
>>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

>>
>> Yes, they are there from the factory.

>
> Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
> generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.


I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.

A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
common.

If they're made at the factory, why?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 06:18 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>>Third question is related to this combination pictu
>>http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
>>Where this question is a combination question of:
>>a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?

> To fit in the hole they store the tools in.


I can't disagree that the shape and length of a purposeful "lug wrench" is
designed just for removing lug nuts, so certainly that's why it's curved
the way it is (to fit around the tire sidewall).

Certainly smaller is easier to fit in a car.

Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?

Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
bar and their hands?

Is that just an urban myth?

critcher February 18th 18 06:32 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 00:48, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
> whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
> km).
>
> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.
>
> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
> I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
> make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
> If so, why?
>
> Third question is related to this combination pictu
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
> Where this question is a combination question of:
> a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
> b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
> bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
> shown?
> c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
> removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
> it.)
> And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
> d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
> bar?
>
> Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
> the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
> 4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
> each of the front tires.
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg
>
> That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
> was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg
>
> The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
> always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
> of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
> out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
> each tire rotation)?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg
>
> In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
> better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).
>



for gods sake get a life.


Robin[_5_] February 18th 18 06:40 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:04, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
>>>

>>
>> Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
>> distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

>
> On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
> head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...
>
> And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
> torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?
>

There are loads of videos on YouTube which may help - eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZUDH13yln0

NB he failed to correct for the weight of the torque wrench itself which
- to a first approximation - acts through a point halfway along its
length :)

If it's a wrench where you read the torque then you can just take a
reading with a bucket of water and compare it to the results of you sum
- and repeat for heavier/lighter buckets.

If you've a hydraulic wrench then I pass.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:42 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:00, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>>> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>>> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>>> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>>> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

>>
>> The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
>> impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
>> fine motion is required.

>
> This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
> reasons, right?
> 1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the
> nuts and the socket itself).
> 2. It is stronger overall (presumably)
>
> Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
> 3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
> 4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)
>


I use single hex impact sockets for 99.9 percent of jobs, there are
practically speaking no occasions when they are too fat to get
somewhere. (better makes are thinner sided than cheap ones)

Unless you have 12 sided nuts/bolts, then you do not need 12 sided
sockets (there are some odd cars/equipment which use 12 sided hardware)

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:43 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 16:57, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
>>> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
>>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
>>> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
>>> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
>>> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

>>
>> The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
>> concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
>> It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

>
> That makes sense! So the rounded corners take the 'stress' off the nut and
> the rounded corner also takes the stress off from the potential for a
> hairline crack of the socket wall?
>
>> A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses.

>
> I was wondering if a 12-point is "weaker" than a 6 point?
> Is at 6 point stronger, weaker, or the same stress on a nut/socket as a 12
> point?
>
>> You can always
>> rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
>> space to swing the bar is tight.

>
> I never thought of that!
> The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?
>
> Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point
> socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th ---
> but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the
> half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?
>


yes, but it is so rarely needed it is not worth worrying about

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:47 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 16:59, Robin wrote:
> On 18/02/2018 16:49, ultred ragnusen wrote:
>> Â* wrote:
>>
>>> Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
>>> the nuts.Â* I use a two step process.Â* First, tighten them to just snug
>>> using a cross pattern.Â* Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
>>> you can feel to tight, but don't kill them.Â* Hard to decribe but you
>>> don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

>>
>> The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
>> have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
>> to fit face to face.
>>
>> Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
>> twist the other where they should both show the same torque.
>>
>> That only "tests" them.
>> I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
>> And you have to "adjust" them if they are.
>>
>> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
>>

>
> Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
> distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.
>


or use a luggage weight scale , attach at (for example ) one foot from
the drive head of the torque wrench and pull till the wrench clicks,
read scales and see if it matches what the torque wrench is set to.
Alternately give the torque wrench to a test station for re-calibration.

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:49 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:11, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>>> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
>>>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
>>>
>>> Yes, they are there from the factory.

>>
>> Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
>> generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

>
> I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.
>
> A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
> common.
>
> If they're made at the factory, why?
>


possibly because they locate in the tool that puts on all the wheel nuts
at the same time.

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:52 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:10, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
>> tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
>> different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
>> can be applied using each one.

>
> I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
> order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.
>
> You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
> hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
> sidewall sticks out a few inches.
>
> Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
> extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
> have that is shortest).
>
> I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
> used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?
>
> I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
> can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
> if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?
>


no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
move.

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 06:54 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 00:48, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
> whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
> km).
>
> First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
> (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
> 1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
> 2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
> 3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.
>
> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
> I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
> make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
> If so, why?
>
> Third question is related to this combination pictu
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
> Where this question is a combination question of:
> a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
> b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
> bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
> shown?
> c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
> removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
> it.)
> And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
> d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
> bar?
>
> Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
> the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
> 4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
> each of the front tires.
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg
>
> That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
> was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg
>
> The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
> always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
> of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
> out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
> each tire rotation)?
> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg
>
> In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
> better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).
>


better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
of fashion about 60 years ago.

alan_m February 18th 18 06:58 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:18, ultred ragnusen wrote:

> Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
> was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
> could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?


99.99% of car owners don't own a torque wrench. The short green wrench
is the cheapest that can be made (and to fit in with jacking tool kit)
to get someone out of trouble when they have to change of tyre in an
emergency. In many cases when the tyre has be installed from factory or
by a the retailer using (air) powered tools most people would find it
very difficult to undo the wheel nuts with that wrench. Much better to
discard it and get something with a longer handle

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Aut...+Wrench/p93520

or

https://tinyurl.com/yag6ddqr


>
> Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
> only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
> bar and their hands?
>


But don't most people jump on it using their whole body weight ? :)



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

AMuzi February 18th 18 06:58 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 2/18/2018 11:04 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
>>>

>>
>> Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
>> distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

>
> On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
> head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...
>
> And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
> torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?
>


or just clamp the wrench's drive in the vise. Measure from
axis, add weight. This is simple arithmetic not rocket science.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971



dsi1[_11_] February 18th 18 08:19 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 2:37:31 AM UTC-10, Fredxx wrote:
>
> Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
> generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.


My guess is that the lug nutz are marked that way to indicate the grade of the fastener in this critical application.

Fredxx February 18th 18 08:32 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:49, MrCheerful wrote:
> On 18/02/2018 17:11, ultred ragnusen wrote:
>> Â* wrote:
>>
>>>>> Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
>>>>> http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Yes, they are there from the factory.
>>>
>>> Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
>>> generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

>>
>> I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.
>>
>> A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
>> common.
>>
>> If they're made at the factory, why?
>>

>
> possibly because they locate in the tool that puts on all the wheel nuts
> at the same time.


OK - like a circlip type clip to retain the nut in the tool?

That would make sense.


alan_m February 18th 18 08:46 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 17:54, MrCheerful wrote:

> better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
> of fashion about 60 years ago.


Yes, in the educated world this type of nonsense has mainly disappeared
but I suspect the original poster lives in the USA where frequent tyre
rotation and 6K oil changes are promoted in order to keep the car
service industry alive - or else they have poorer quality tyres and oil.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Ralph Mowery February 18th 18 08:54 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
In article >,
says...
>
> wrote:
>
> > Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
> > the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
> > using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
> > you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
> > don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

>
> The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
> have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
> to fit face to face.
>
> Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
> twist the other where they should both show the same torque.
>
> That only "tests" them.
> I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
> And you have to "adjust" them if they are.
>
> Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?



The main thing is to have all nuts tightened the same. With in some
limits, the actual torque is not all that important as long as the wheel
does not come off,or you strip or break the bolt.

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 09:24 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 19:49, BurfordTJustice wrote:
> Really it is not needed in the UK cause of those little **** ant cans you
> blokes call cars.
>
> Real men all left the UK to a land where they could get a real car or
> truck..


we sent a lot of dross to the USA

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 09:26 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 19:46, BurfordTJustice wrote:
> No need to with those little **** ant things you blokes call cars.
>


That must be why merkins are so keen to own English cars.

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 09:37 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
>> can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
>> if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?
>>

>
> no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
> mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
> move.


That makes too much sense for Usenet! :)

I guess there are two faults with a 20" extension bar that a 2" extenstion
bar wouldh't have then.

1. Some of the measured torque is wasted in twisting the bar, and,
2. Any extension bar not at 90 degrees to the nut also changes the torque.

Both effects are probably slight - but perhaps measurable?

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 09:44 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> Much better to
> discard it and get something with a longer handle
> https://tinyurl.com/yag6ddqr


That "teloscopic torque wrench" was a new tool to my eyes!
(Too bad it doesn't take a socket because it's 17/19 & while I need 21mm).

It must be a clever internal mechanism that calculates the torque correctly
when you can change the distance along the lever!

>> Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
>> only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
>> bar and their hands?
>>

>
> But don't most people jump on it using their whole body weight ? :)


Truth be told, I've used my appreciable body weight for /removing/ lug
bolts ... but never for tightening them.

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 09:49 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>>> You can always
>>> rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
>>> space to swing the bar is tight.

>>
>> I never thought of that!
>> The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?
>>
>> Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point
>> socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th ---
>> but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the
>> half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?
>>

>
> yes, but it is so rarely needed it is not worth worrying about


It's still nice to know that you can get the same angle effect out of a six
point socket that you can out of a 12-point socket, simply by rotating the
4-point extension bar location.

Personally, my tools just "grew" over time, where I have some 12 points and
some 6 points where some are normal sockets, deep sockets, and impact
sockets, where I wish I had known what I'm learning in this thread in the
beginning.

Seems to me that the /first/ set anyone should get are normal length & deep
six-point sockets (both metric & SAE).

The metric & SAE 12-point sets should come next, I would think.

Mrcheerful February 18th 18 09:52 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 20:37, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
>>> can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
>>> if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?
>>>

>>
>> no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
>> mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
>> move.

>
> That makes too much sense for Usenet! :)
>
> I guess there are two faults with a 20" extension bar that a 2" extenstion
> bar wouldh't have then.
>
> 1. Some of the measured torque is wasted in twisting the bar, and,
> 2. Any extension bar not at 90 degrees to the nut also changes the torque.
>
> Both effects are probably slight - but perhaps measurable?
>


certainly, but there is no need for such precision in this application.

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 10:09 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

> better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
> of fashion about 60 years ago.


I realize all the responses (so far) to this post were trolls or jokes, but
if you were actually serious, please do read my explanation below of what I
feel is the inherent value in rotating tires periodically.

In my case, the suspension is aligned (caster, camber, and toe anyway), and
tires are selected, mounted, and balanced (statically), and pressurized,
and repaired (from the inside with a patchplug), and rotated by me, so
everything about those tires is up to me, and not to a mechanic who is paid
by the hour who might skip some of the steps that I do (see below) to save
time.

Of course, I can only meticulously statically balance the wheel-and-tire
assembly, but the dynamic-balance test of driving at speeds shows no
dynamic imbalance that can be felt by the driver.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/...ic_balance.jpg

Given the well-aligned vehicle is driven daily on mountainous hilly steep
very windy roads, including a mandatory K-turn daily, the fronts inevitably
develop a unidirectional feathering that can be barely felt by the hand
which is palpable consistently at around 4K miles.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...828_100512.jpg

Since the spare is a different brand, I rotate in the classic four-wheel
II->X->II->X pattern that puts each tire at each of the four corners over a
period of 12K miles (about 8 to 10 months of driving) - and - when I rotate
- I inspect the entire carcass for pebbles & shards as shown here from this
weekend.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter1.jpg

To overcome some of the boredom of plucking detritus out of the tread, I
count the objects removed, where there are always more than 50 per tire, so
I try to approach a count of 100 objects removed, some of which turn out to
be this (staple?) shard I found yesterday.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter2.jpg

While you intimate that the periodic inspection and rotation of tires has
"gone out of style", my reasonably logical position is that the selection,
mounting, balancing, pressurizing, inspection, repair, and rotation of
tires is a reasonable and rational act that results in increased safety and
life of the tires - partly because removing something like this shard never
goes out of style!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter3.jpg

ultred ragnusen February 18th 18 10:17 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
wrote:

>> No need to with those little **** ant things you blokes call cars.
>>

>
> That must be why merkins are so keen to own English cars.


I'm not sure who is trolling and who is joking as rotating and inspecting
tires is a natural thing that you do on most vehicles simply because fronts
wear differently than rears, and crowns affect wear and alignment setup per
side.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/...ic_balance.jpg

Besides, rotating tires gives you a chance to doublecheck their static
balance and to inspect and remove between 50 and 100 pebbles and shards
from the carcass.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter2.jpg

With respect to the country of origin of most cars driven in America, I'd
wager that Japan has the rest of the world beat in terms of what 'mericans
prefer overall.

alan_m February 18th 18 10:21 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 18/02/2018 20:44, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Much better to
>> discard it and get something with a longer handle
>> https://tinyurl.com/yag6ddqr

>
> That "teloscopic torque wrench" was a new tool to my eyes!
> (Too bad it doesn't take a socket because it's 17/19 & while I need 21mm).


These telescopic bars have a normal 1/2 inch square drive that any 1/2
drive socket can fit into. You don't have to use the socket it comes with.

It's not a torque wrench - its just a wrench with a telescopic handle
that is at least twice as long as that which normally comes with the car
kit. It gives you much more leverage when trying to free the nut. It's
the same principle of adding a scaffolding over over an existing wrench
bar to make it longer.

> It must be a clever internal mechanism that calculates the torque correctly
> when you can change the distance along the lever!


It you added an extension tube to the end of a normal click type torque
wrench to make the handle twice as long and you applied your pressure to
the end this extension wouldn't the torque wrench still click at the
correct torque?




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Dean Hoffman[_5_] February 18th 18 10:28 PM

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?
 
On 2/18/18 3:17 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:

> With respect to the country of origin of most cars driven in America,
> I'd wager that Japan has the rest of the world beat in terms of what
> 'mericans prefer overall. b

The only British car I see in the mid USA is the Mini. There are
lots of cars with Japanese badges around. Some of those are built
in the US though. Supposedly US vehicles might be built in Canada
or Mexico.



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