In article >, Spike wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:58:37 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote:
>
>>In article >, Spike wrote:
>>> I still do not see where, with evidence that many users of the
>>> Autobahn violate lane discipline every day (and that's according to
>>> the Autobahn enforcement and management divisions),
>>
>>I didn't argue they violated it, I argue they follow it far more than US
>>drivers. And they do so without much in the way of enforcement. There is
>>very sparse enforcement on the autobahn, and when there is, they go after
>>things like tailgating, as that is the major problem there last I heard.
>>If we only had it so good.
>
> That is not accurate according to the Management and Enforcement
> agencies of the Autobahn. There are cameras for monitoring traffic,
> and enforcement uses a wide range of specialized, marked and unmarked,
> car and motorcycle patrols, as well as roadside monitoring. They go
> after violators of a wide range of traffic laws, including,
> lighting,signaling, speed, adverse conditions operation, lane
> changing at speed, proper lane maintenance, etc etc etc. I get the
> impression you have not personally driven the Autobahn, nor studied
> the management of it's use. If what you say is contrary to what the
> management and enforcement operations of the Autobahn, and the German
> government say, how can anything you say be taken seriously?

You have an actual cite? Because this image of rigid enforcement you are
trying to convey is contrary to everything I've read, seen, and
experienced. Yes, there is enforcement, but it is not the
way you are making it out to be. There is no constant monitoring of
everyone, everywhere for violations as you are making it out to be. It
simply is not like that.

There is some enforcement presence, but nothing like you claim. Sparse
would be a good word to describe it. Rural autobahn has effectively
nobody out there enforcing lane discipline, much like rural Indiana.
However, on the rural autobahn, there is lane discipline, while in rural
Indiana interstate it's practically nonexistant.

Effectively what you are doing is taking the existance of a few red
light cameras and acting as if the entire US road system is so monitored.

Also, I didn't write that only tailgating was enforced, but that
tailgating was the big problem. There are/have been tailgating traps set
up on overpasses to measure the distances between vehicles. Much like the
effort put in with speed traps in the USA.

Patrol cars are few and far between as well.

So, you show me this constant, ever present enforcement you claim exists.
I simply didn't see it, and you are the first person I've encountered to
claim it's there.

> Law enforcement is there to enforce the law... and that includes
> traffic laws.

Then enforce Keep Right except to pass. Enforce signaling, enforce a
whole host of laws on books in this country. But are they enforced? No.

Here in IL, elected officals strengthen the lane discipline portion of the
vehicle code. In a year's time, the ISP writes a whole 50 some tickets.
It's trivial. On I90/94 it one could spend their entire shift writing
tickets for this and this alone.

> Police officers don't make the laws.

They damn well choose what to enforce and on who.

> You put down the enforcement model, as if the cops make the rules.

No, I put it down because it's idiotcy. The same way you are claiming the
autobahn is so tightly controled and how that's no good. (thankfully it's
not controlled like that)

> Talk to the politicians.

Yes, you're only following the orders of your masters.

> There are a lot of changes we would like to see, but we
> have to live with what the system hands us.

As if there is no selective enforcement.

> You act as if our sole motivation is revenue.

That's the motivation of your masters, the politicians, and since you
just follow orders, and told me to take it up with them, then it is your
motivation too.

> It's clear you don't personally know many, if
> any at all, police officers. You clearly have no idea what they are
> about, or what they have to contend with from people who seem to think
> they are above the law because they know better than the enforcement
> officer, and everyone else.

Oh, you mean like the ISP who ticket people for going faster than 55mph
but drive 85-90mph themselves? Or the local cops that rutinely speed and
don't use singals and make all sorts of violations? Or the cops who don't
know the vehicle code and demanded that I remove my vehicle (a bicycle)
from the roadway? Or my favorite, the two cops, one tailgating the other
driving 80mph or so on IL53, and when the lead cruiser used the brakes,
the following cruiser nearly rear ended the lead one.

>>Also driver training in the USA is practically non-existant. People just
>>sort of decide on their own personal set of rules. This includes cops.

> I do agree that driver training can be different in scope from one
> area to another. You see that elsewhere in the world. For example, in
> Belgium you were required to have a driver's license if you bought a
> new car, but if you bought a used car it was not required. In some
> countries, a license is unheard of for the masses. I know what my son
> went through to get his license. The number of months of restricted
> driving (things like not permitted to have other teens in the car is
> the law for new young drivers), etc. I'm getting the feeling you have
> selected a single region where you have experienced your peeves, and
> applied that to the entire country.

What part of the US of A has a decent driver training program? Name one.
Just name one state that has something closer to say the UK's requirements
than usual around-the-block type testing of the USA.

Oh, btw, the hoops teenagers in the USA are made to go through in the USA
only make for equally untrained older teenagers driving. It's not about
teaching them to drive, but just restricting their driving to limit the
damage they can do. (Identical mentality to having underposted speed
limits, let every idiot drive, but try to restrict the damage that will
occur when they hit something) Having only one passenger so they can't
kill 3 of their friends in a wreck under the concept that they cannot handle
distractions from said friends. Maybe it's because this is a culture of
multi-tasking drivers. Where driving isn't considered important, but
something you can do in addition to yacking on the phone, reading,
shaving, applying make up, etc... Just ease them into being like most of
the rest of the population.

I'd like to see a state that starts requiring skid control classes in HS
driver's ed instead of having cops hassle the few that find an empty
parking lot to teach themselves.

> People are different from one zone
> to another. Just as rural people are less apt to lock their homes than
> people living in major metro areas. I've lived in MA, NY, ME, IN, FL,
> MN, CA, WA, AK, rural and metro areas, and traveled through most of
> the rest of the country. My experience is fairly extensive.

I am not saying observed behavior doesn't vary. It vary well does because
driving education in this country is essentially one generation teaching
the next. You can check in google groups to see where I have argued
before that it DOES vary from place to place. I found that lane
discipline in WV is orders of magnitude better than in IL, for instance.
So much for your newest manufactured angle. However, required
driver training in the USA is low in every state as far as I know.