cold start sluggishness

There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to:
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:57:54 -0800, Outatime > wrote:

>L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:
>
>> Blocking off the Exhaust Gases Recirculation valve, isn't really a
>> bad idea, I use a plug hidden inside the vacuum hose and a plate under
>> the valves. Upon inspection it just must look as though it works, it
>
>I used to do this back in the 70's and 80's too. I figured that
>sticking it to The Man was a good thing, and that if it ran better, what
>the hell.
>
>Fact is, every engine I ever did that to (that was carburated) ended up
>running too rich. It ran better, but too rich. I rejetted an old 318
>Dodge motor that I'd de-EGR'ed, and it was better, but then when the
>Smog Nazi hooked up a vacuum tester to the EGR and discovered my
>handiwork, it cost me $50 bucks to undo the thing, rejet and retest.
>Bleh. Big hassle.

Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.

>
>Doing this on an OBD-II controlled motor will set codes and make your
>dash light up like a Christmas tree. You can still get away with it on
>an OBD-I motor that is fuel injected without a problem, but just
>remember to undo it when the time comes.

Some OBD I systems (Chrysler & Jeep for example) do monitor EGR flow,
and will light the MIL if EGR is blocked off.

>
>EGR valves are old-school. You'd think that by now, they'd be
>unnessasary; creating a deliberate exhaust gas leak into the intake is
>like throwing a wet blanket on a fire.

On many vehicles, it is unnecessary now. But, as emission laws get
tighter, it may become necessary again.

When they first started using EGR, it didn't work as well as it does
now. Some vehicles actually have EGR valves, not because they were
needed to pass NOx standards, but because they found they could
actually get slightly better MPG.

>
>Now you have me thinking about installing a 'block-off' gasket on the TJ
>just to see if it would run better and get better mileage. A block-off
>wouldn't set a code (shouldn't?), and it won't run rich either.

"If" your TJ had EGR, and you blocked it off, it would certainly set a
code, but it doesn't.

>
>I'll get back to you on all this...

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:02:38 -0800, "L.W.(Bill) Hughes III"
> in an all out fatal attempt to prove worthiness wrote:

You just can't seem to get it right, now can you, and these people listen
to your Bull, and accept it. Sad.

:> There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
:>I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
:>coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
:>make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
:>when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
:>elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
:>remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
:>Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
:>usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
:>any man would.
:> Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
:>coward!
:> You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
:>paragraph it fits so well!
:> But now worth the time to forward this low life to:
:>and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
:> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/
:>
:>"24Bit®" wrote:
:>><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:55:44 -0800, "L.W.(Bill) Hughes III"
> in an all out fatal attempt to prove worthiness wrote:

You just can't seem to get it right, now can you, and these people listen
to your Bull, and accept it. Sad.

:> There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
:>I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
:>coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
:>make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
:>when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
:>elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
:>remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
:>Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
:>usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
:>any man would.
:> Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
:>coward!
:> You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
:>paragraph it fits so well!
:> But now worth the time to forward this low life to:
:>and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
:> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/
:>
:>"24Bit®" wrote:
:>><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Outatime proclaimed:

> L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:
>
>> Blocking off the Exhaust Gases Recirculation valve, isn't really a
>> bad idea, I use a plug hidden inside the vacuum hose and a plate under
>> the valves. Upon inspection it just must look as though it works, it
>
>
> I used to do this back in the 70's and 80's too. I figured that
> sticking it to The Man was a good thing, and that if it ran better, what
> the hell.

Some folks used little soft plastic plugs or balls...if they did get
into the engine they wouldn't cause any harm.
>
> Fact is, every engine I ever did that to (that was carburated) ended up
> running too rich. It ran better, but too rich. I rejetted an old 318
> Dodge motor that I'd de-EGR'ed, and it was better, but then when the
> Smog Nazi hooked up a vacuum tester to the EGR and discovered my
> handiwork, it cost me $50 bucks to undo the thing, rejet and retest.
> Bleh. Big hassle.

If you have two hoses, put the block in one, then swap for the smog
test. Experienced smog operators could spot the disabled or reduced EGR
just by listening to your engine as you drove in.

>
> Doing this on an OBD-II controlled motor will set codes and make your
> dash light up like a Christmas tree. You can still get away with it on
> an OBD-I motor that is fuel injected without a problem, but just
> remember to undo it when the time comes.
>
> EGR valves are old-school. You'd think that by now, they'd be
> unnessasary; creating a deliberate exhaust gas leak into the intake is
> like throwing a wet blanket on a fire.

Reduces nitrous oxide. Hopefully somebody will figure a better way, as
there is pretty good fuel savings running with higher compression and
combustion but that also increases NOx...and with the new congress
already blowing about "environment" this doesn't look like good times
ahead for auto enthusiasts.
>
> Now you have me thinking about installing a 'block-off' gasket on the TJ
> just to see if it would run better and get better mileage. A block-off
> wouldn't set a code (shouldn't?), and it won't run rich either.

Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

>

bllsht wrote:

> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.

It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

Lon wrote:

> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
if we mess with input sensors.

There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to:
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

I believe most people were raised by their parents to take
responsibility and make their own decisions.
There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to:
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime > wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>
>It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
down.

>
>Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
being on, that is.

I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.