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  #1  
Old September 30th 10, 01:49 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Tom Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Read this before you buy

ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Effectiveness
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  #2  
Old September 30th 10, 09:25 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
chuckcar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Read this before you buy

Tom Adams > wrote in :

> ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
> seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
> optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Effectiveness
>

Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required for
badly designed cars like this one:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...266773 _n.jpg


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
  #3  
Old October 1st 10, 07:43 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Tom Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Read this before you buy

On Sep 30, 4:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
> Tom Adams > wrote :
>
> > ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
> > seatbelt. *It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
> > optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Effectiveness

>
> Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required for
> badly designed cars like this one:
>
> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...28660_10150187...
>
> --
> (setq (chuck nil) *car(chuck) )


In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products, close
to the worst of all.

Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. Add up all the cars you
will own and that gets
you to 1 in 85. And that does not even include all the non-fatal
injuries.

What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.

BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you
would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.
  #4  
Old October 2nd 10, 12:25 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
chuckcar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Read this before you buy

Tom Adams > wrote in
:

> On Sep 30, 4:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
>> Tom Adams > wrote
>> innews:60ed4c25-2a29-467a-b97b-1c29

> :
>>
>> > ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
>> > seatbelt. *It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
>> > optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

>>
>> >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ol#Effectivene
>> >ss

>>
>> Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required for
>> badly designed cars like this one:
>>
>> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...28660_10150187.


> In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products, close
> to the worst of all.
>
> Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. Add up all the cars you
> will own and that gets
> you to 1 in 85. And that does not even include all the non-fatal
> injuries.
>
> What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.
>
> BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you
> would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.
>

If you did you wouldn't use superlatives in decribing it.

Lighten up FCS. You don't recognise anyone in that shot?

You don't seem to have much consistancy in what you say either:

>

Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests and
retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police employment
is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to be able to do a
powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in emergencies. Traction
control is another crutch for people who simply can't get a feel for
driving and is only useful in race cars. Perhaps it increases tire
life, but that's it.

BTW *no* one survives an encounter with a moose. It's purely a roll of the
dice. Except for the case where you're on a well lit straight as an arrow
road where you can see the thing 1/4 mile ahead of you, you simply can't
do anything.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
  #5  
Old October 2nd 10, 02:08 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Nancy Adams[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Read this before you buy

On Oct 1, 7:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
> Tom Adams > wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 30, 4:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
> >> Tom Adams > wrote
> >> innews:60ed4c25-2a29-467a-b97b-1c29

> > :

>
> >> > ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
> >> > seatbelt. *It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
> >> > optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

>
> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ol#Effectivene
> >> >ss

>
> >> Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required for
> >> badly designed cars like this one:

>
> >>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...28660_10150187.

> > In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products, close
> > to the worst of all.

>
> > Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. *Add up all the cars you
> > will own and that gets
> > you to 1 in 85. *And that does not even include all the non-fatal
> > injuries.

>
> > What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.

>
> > BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you
> > would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.

>
> If you did you wouldn't use superlatives in decribing it.
>
> Lighten up FCS. You don't recognise anyone in that shot?
>
> You don't seem to have much consistancy in what you say either:
>
> >
>
> Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests and
> retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police employment
> is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to be able to do a
> powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in emergencies.


What a joke, you are not aware that ABS didn't pan out. No evidence it
ever saved a single life.

> Traction
> control is another crutch for people who simply can't get a feel for
> driving and is only useful in race cars. Perhaps it increases tire
> life, but that's it.
>
> BTW *no* one survives an encounter with a moose. It's purely a roll of the
> dice. Except for the case where you're on a well lit straight as an arrow
> road where you can see the thing 1/4 mile ahead of you, you simply can't
> do anything.
>
> --
> (setq (chuck nil) *car(chuck) )- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


If you want to drive at the edge of oversteer and understeer, hit the
off button.

Your bizarre opinions don;t change the facts: 1 person will die for
every 1500 or so new motor vehicles sold without ESC between now and
the start of the 2012 model year (when it's mandated).


  #6  
Old October 2nd 10, 01:14 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
chuckcar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Read this before you buy

Nancy Adams > wrote in
:

> On Oct 1, 7:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
>> Tom Adams > wrote
>> innews:6e7a9ce3-6811-42a0-b48c-b698

> :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 30, 4:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
>> >> Tom Adams > wrote
>> >> innews:60ed4c25-2a29-467a-b97b-1c29
>> > :

>>
>> >> > ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
>> >> > seatbelt. *It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
>> >> > optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

>>
>> >> >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ntrol#Effectiv
>> >> >ene ss

>>
>> >> Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required
>> >> for badly designed cars like this one:

>>
>> >>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-.../28660_1015018
>> >>7.
>> > In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products,
>> > close to the worst of all.

>>
>> > Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. *Add up all the cars you
>> > will own and that gets
>> > you to 1 in 85. *And that does not even include all the non-fatal
>> > injuries.

>>
>> > What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.

>>
>> > BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about,
>> > you would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.

>>
>> If you did you wouldn't use superlatives in decribing it.
>>
>> Lighten up FCS. You don't recognise anyone in that shot?
>>
>> You don't seem to have much consistancy in what you say either:
>>
>>
>> ps.

> com>
>>
>> Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests and
>> retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police
>> employment is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to be
>> able to do a powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in
>> emergencies.

>
> What a joke, you are not aware that ABS didn't pan out. No evidence it
> ever saved a single life.
>

Then you've never read any newpapers. It happens daily. If you stop in a
shorter distance - assuming you're not some idiot that doesn't wear
seatbelts and fly out the windshield - it simply does.

> If you want to drive at the edge of oversteer and understeer, hit the
> off button.
>

When there *is* one. There isn't far more often than the reverse. And do
*don't* turn it off for such. Just the reverse. I assume you're talking
about Traction control here - the above appeared after my sig and no where
near any relevant paragraph of mine.

> Your bizarre opinions don;t change the facts: 1 person will die for
> every 1500 or so new motor vehicles sold without ESC between now and
> the start of the 2012 model year (when it's mandated).


You have an actual study to back this up?

I'll tell you what will give you even better stats: ban consumer SUV
purchases in cases where they're not actually needed. By SUV's I
mean: crossovers, minivans, what are *actually* called SUV's, vans and
trucks. All the above serve a purpose, but are rarely bought for such.

They're already declining in sales and there's a glut on the market. Has
been for a few years now.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
  #7  
Old October 3rd 10, 12:20 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Tom Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Read this before you buy

On Oct 2, 8:14*am, chuckcar > wrote:
> Nancy Adams > wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 1, 7:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
> >> Tom Adams > wrote
> >> innews:6e7a9ce3-6811-42a0-b48c-b698

> > :

>
> >> > On Sep 30, 4:25*pm, chuckcar > wrote:
> >> >> Tom Adams > wrote
> >> >> innews:60ed4c25-2a29-467a-b97b-1c29
> >> > :

>
> >> >> > ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
> >> >> > seatbelt. *It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
> >> >> > optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

>
> >> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ntrol#Effectiv
> >> >> >ene ss

>
> >> >> Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required
> >> >> for badly designed cars like this one:

>
> >> >>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-.../28660_1015018
> >> >>7.
> >> > In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products,
> >> > close to the worst of all.

>
> >> > Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. *Add up all the cars you
> >> > will own and that gets
> >> > you to 1 in 85. *And that does not even include all the non-fatal
> >> > injuries.

>
> >> > What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.

>
> >> > BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about,
> >> > you would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.

>
> >> If you did you wouldn't use superlatives in decribing it.

>
> >> Lighten up FCS. You don't recognise anyone in that shot?

>
> >> You don't seem to have much consistancy in what you say either:

>
> >>
> >> ps.

> > com>

>
> >> Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests and
> >> retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police
> >> employment is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to be
> >> able to do a powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in
> >> emergencies.

>
> > What a joke, you are not aware that ABS didn't pan out. No evidence it
> > ever saved a single life.

>
> Then you've never read any newpapers. It happens daily. If you stop in a
> shorter distance - assuming you're not some idiot that doesn't wear
> seatbelts and fly out the windshield - it simply does.



"Most important, however, was the observation that the stopping
distances during the braking manoeuvres were not any shorter in the
presence of ABS than with standard brakes."

http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html

>
> > If you want to drive at the edge of oversteer and understeer, hit the
> > off button.

>
> When there *is* one. There isn't far more often than the reverse. And do
> *don't* turn it off for such. Just the reverse. I assume you're talking
> about Traction control here - the above appeared after my sig and no where
> near any relevant paragraph of mine.


I was talking about ESC, sorry for the confusion.

>
> > Your bizarre opinions don;t change the facts: 1 person will die for
> > every 1500 or so new motor vehicles sold without ESC between now and
> > the start of the 2012 model year (when it's mandated).

>
> You have an actual study to back this up?


European, NHTSA and IIHS field studies show about a 1/3 reduction in
fatalities for ESC. The average risk
for a motor vehicle is 1/500, hence 1/1500.

>
> I'll tell you what will give you even better stats: ban consumer SUV
> purchases in cases where they're not actually needed. By SUV's I
> mean: crossovers, minivans, what are *actually* called SUV's, vans and
> trucks. All the above serve a purpose, but are rarely bought for such.


ESC has roughly equalized the risk for SUVs vs sedans.

>
> They're already declining in sales and there's a glut on the market. Has
> been for a few years now.
>
> --
> (setq (chuck nil) *car(chuck) )- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


  #8  
Old October 3rd 10, 06:09 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 151
Default Read this before you buy

On 9/30/2010 2:49 AM, Tom Adams wrote:
> ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
> seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
> optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Effectiveness


My 2006 Hyundai Sonata has ESC, there's a button on the dash to turn it
off. My guess is that if your car has ABS, adding this feature is mostly
a software change.

I think it's a great advance although I suspect it might increase your
chances for rollover accidents in high center of gravity vehicles.
  #9  
Old October 3rd 10, 06:50 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,914
Default Read this before you buy

In article >, dsi1 > wrote:
>On 9/30/2010 2:49 AM, Tom Adams wrote:
>> ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
>> seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
>> optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Effectiveness

>
>My 2006 Hyundai Sonata has ESC, there's a button on the dash to turn it
>off. My guess is that if your car has ABS, adding this feature is mostly
>a software change.
>
>I think it's a great advance although I suspect it might increase your
>chances for rollover accidents in high center of gravity vehicles.


ESC makes the vehicle more stable and extends the basic stability envelope.
The thing is, there's still an edge to that envelope, it's just in a different
place. The end consequence of this is that the point where the system
becomes unstable is more difficult to hit, but it's also more unstable at
that point than it otherwise would be.

ESC does make a bloated and ungainly vehicle easier to drive. Personally
I don't think this is a good thing because I think the _last_ thing we
need is to encourage more people to drive bloated and ungainly gas-guzzlers.

You can take the attitude that ESC is a bad thing because it takes control
effectively away from the driver and hands it to an automated system. But
on the other hand, if you look at most of the drivers on the road today,
an automated system can probably do better. Hell, a trained gorilla can
probably do better.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #10  
Old October 3rd 10, 06:53 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
chuckcar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Read this before you buy

Tom Adams > wrote in
:

> On Oct 2, 8:14*am, chuckcar > wrote:
>> Nancy Adams > wrote
>> innews:7802017b-5232-48b7-992d-f6

> :
>>


>> >> Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests
>> >> and retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police
>> >> employment is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to
>> >> be able to do a powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in
>> >> emergencies.

>>
>> > What a joke, you are not aware that ABS didn't pan out. No evidence
>> > it ever saved a single life.

>>

Not to labour over this minor point, but you don't *hear* about accidents
that don't happen either. you *do* hear about declines in auto accidents
however.

>> Then you've never read any newpapers. It happens daily. If you stop
>> in a shorter distance - assuming you're not some idiot that doesn't
>> wear seatbelts and fly out the windshield - it simply does.

>
>
> "Most important, however, was the observation that the stopping
> distances during the braking manoeuvres were not any shorter in the
> presence of ABS than with standard brakes."
>
>
http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html
>

Perhaps, but being one study and the fact that there's lots of room for
problems with the method used for experimentation. Taking people out of
the equation and just using an automated device for example would give
uniform results. That's if one included a method for such a device to
detect when brakes are locked without ABS present and can react in human
reation times. ABS reacts faster to such and that's why any discussion
saying it doesn't work better is going to be met with scepticism from
me. I also don't particularly like that it's a psychologist massaging
the data. Another thing is that people make errors in real world situations.
So even if they did better things than the ABS for slowing down, there'd
still be that factor making it worse on occasion.

>>
>> > If you want to drive at the edge of oversteer and understeer, hit
>> > the off button.

>>
>> When there *is* one. There isn't far more often than the reverse. And
>> do *don't* turn it off for such. Just the reverse. I assume you're
>> talking about Traction control here - the above appeared after my sig
>> and no wher

> e
>> near any relevant paragraph of mine.

>
> I was talking about ESC, sorry for the confusion.
>
>>
>> > Your bizarre opinions don;t change the facts: 1 person will die for
>> > every 1500 or so new motor vehicles sold without ESC between now
>> > and the start of the 2012 model year (when it's mandated).

>>
>> You have an actual study to back this up?

>
> European, NHTSA and IIHS field studies show about a 1/3 reduction in
> fatalities for ESC. The average risk
> for a motor vehicle is 1/500, hence 1/1500.
>

Which could simply be the fact that the SUV's don't flip over because
the driver doesn't ever find out what is needed to so such without ESC.
Hence my use of the term crutch.

>>
>> I'll tell you what will give you even better stats: ban consumer SUV
>> purchases in cases where they're not actually needed. By SUV's I
>> mean: crossovers, minivans, what are *actually* called SUV's, vans
>> and trucks. All the above serve a purpose, but are rarely bought for
>> such.

>
> ESC has roughly equalized the risk for SUVs vs sedans.
>

I don't doubt that. That's the whole point of it: stopping roll by
taking control out of the driver's hands. It still doesn't make a SUV a
good design for emergencies on an equal playing field however. That is
with *both* without ESC of course. In addition, there can be mistakes in
the code of ESC which make it worse than a proper test driver would do
in the same situation.

--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
 




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