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$ 567.00 for ten minutes labor !?!?!?!?!



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 4th 05, 11:03 PM
Michael J. Delaglio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default $ 567.00 for ten minutes labor !?!?!?!?!

Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the way
down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it was
TP issue .

Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it
is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put one
in.

The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)

They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.

I absolutely dont believe it.

Comments on the labor charge ???

Michael


Ads
  #2  
Old October 4th 05, 11:26 PM
John C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in message
...
> Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the way
> down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it was
> TP issue .
>
> Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it
> is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put one
> in.
>
> The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
> Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>
> They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>
> I absolutely dont believe it.
>
> Comments on the labor charge ???
>


Ouch! It must have taken 7 hours and 50 minutes to troubleshoot. That place
must have some real cracker-jack techs.
--
John C.
'03 Cobra Convt.



  #3  
Old October 4th 05, 11:40 PM
Michael J. Delaglio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John C." > wrote in message
news:1kD0f.2695$WD5.471@trndny06...
>
> "Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the
>> way
>> down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it
>> was
>> TP issue .
>>
>> Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and
>> it
>> is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put
>> one
>> in.
>>
>> The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
>> Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>>
>> They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>>
>> I absolutely dont believe it.
>>
>> Comments on the labor charge ???
>>

>
> Ouch! It must have taken 7 hours and 50 minutes to troubleshoot. That
> place
> must have some real cracker-jack techs.
> --
> John C.
> '03 Cobra Convt.
>


"Cracker-jack techs".... LOL Good one !!! The part that was replaced is
directly responsible for the idle control. I took the car in for an idle
problem. It sould be the first thing that they check or at least one of the
first things. I'm always the first to give a tech the benifit of the doubt
because I used to fix cars myself at a VW place during my first two years of
college way back in 1986-1988. Lots of air-cooled bugs and the like. I
always remember how just about every customer wanted to know why the repairs
would cost so much. They all wanted to pay twenty bucks to have a clutch
job done.

In my case here, $ 567.00 labor to diagnose an obvious problem and then do
ten minutes of remove-replace is totally out of hand. It was a straight-up
rip-off !!!!!

Michael


  #4  
Old October 5th 05, 12:05 AM
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Most likely, the tech spent a ton of time chasing the wrong thing and they
made you pay for it. I would first find out what that job should have cost
with another dealership. Then have a talk with the service manager. If the
prices are that far out of line, you might have to go up the chain of
command to the general manager or even the owner to get a compromise. Did it
set a code?


"Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in message
...
> Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the
> way down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured
> it was TP issue .
>
> Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it
> is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put
> one in.
>
> The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
> Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>
> They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>
> I absolutely dont believe it.
>
> Comments on the labor charge ???
>
> Michael
>



  #5  
Old October 5th 05, 12:53 AM
Joe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in
:

>
> "John C." > wrote in message
> news:1kD0f.2695$WD5.471@trndny06...
>>
>> "Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all
>>> the way
>>> down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I
>>> figured it was
>>> TP issue .
>>>
>>> Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in
>>> and it
>>> is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to
>>> put one
>>> in.
>>>
>>> The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB
>>> (Throtle Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>>>
>>> They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>>>
>>> I absolutely dont believe it.
>>>
>>> Comments on the labor charge ???
>>>

>>
>> Ouch! It must have taken 7 hours and 50 minutes to troubleshoot.
>> That place
>> must have some real cracker-jack techs.
>> --
>> John C.
>> '03 Cobra Convt.
>>

>
> "Cracker-jack techs".... LOL Good one !!! The part that was
> replaced is directly responsible for the idle control. I took the
> car in for an idle problem. It sould be the first thing that they
> check or at least one of the first things. I'm always the first to
> give a tech the benifit of the doubt because I used to fix cars
> myself at a VW place during my first two years of college way back in
> 1986-1988. Lots of air-cooled bugs and the like. I always remember
> how just about every customer wanted to know why the repairs would
> cost so much. They all wanted to pay twenty bucks to have a clutch
> job done.
>
> In my case here, $ 567.00 labor to diagnose an obvious problem and
> then do ten minutes of remove-replace is totally out of hand. It was
> a straight-up rip-off !!!!!
>
> Michael


Write the GM of the dealership and tell him/her how angry you are and
that they've lost a customer for life.

Include copies of the repair including the cost. Tell the GM that the
job was a complete rip-off considering what was done.

Also tell him/her that if it took that long to diagnose the problem,
they've got morons working as techs there and you won't be returning
simply because of that.

Finally, tell them that you're going to complain to corporate about the
entire thing, and you'll be using the GM's name.

If you don't get a reply, you at least have the small satisfaction of
informing corporate that they've got some rip-off artists at work.

If you get a reply, perhaps they'll try to make amends or at least
offer you some kind of compensation. Might be worth a shot.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
  #6  
Old October 5th 05, 01:12 AM
Spike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What is the shop/dealer hourly labor rate?
How long was the car in the shop?
Any tax?

First, you said it was a dealer. Dealers, generally, have higher rates
than independent shops. Many businesses which sell items, make up the
bulk of the business income from after market repair.

Shop should have a schedule (either book or computer program) of time
to repair by item.

So, you should have had a computer (probably) diagnosis for $X (since
we do not know if they have a flat diagnosis rate, how long it took to
diagnose, or what the shop hourly rate is). Of course, if it didn't
show up in computer diagnosis then it's down to manual trace. The time
for that is not set. (Lots of good mechanics out there, but more and
more, computers are dumbing them down.)

Then, once the problem is identified, it might only take 10 minutes to
actually repair, but the schedule might say 45 minutes.... for part
"A". It might say 25 minutes for part "B". These are billed
individually. Just because the mechanic can do both within the 40
minutes listed for part "A", don't expect that to be it.

On top of that, many shops charge to the next higher half hour or
hour. This you need to know BEFORE you take it in. The hourly rate
might be $80 per hour.... or any portion of that hour. So, you pay $80
for an hour, or $80 for 15 minutes, or $160 for 1 hour and 7 minutes.

So, now you have
Diagnosis unk hr @ $80/hr ...................................$ unk
Part "A"............................................... ........$101.17
Part "A" 40 min @ $80/hr ..................................$ 80.00
Part "B" $100 ...............................................$10 0.00
Part "B" 25 min @ $80/ht ..................................$ 80.00
.................................................. .....Sub T $361.17+
...........................................CA Tax 7.75% $ 27.99+
.................................................. .....Sub T $389.16+
.................................................. ..You paid $768.17
.................................................D ifference $379.00

I'll take a guess that your car was in a dealer shop for at least 4
hours... your labor only works out to $141.75 per hour. Steep, but not
unheard of in some localities. (Go to someplace like San Francisco and
have a car repaired in the city.)

Not to say you didn't get ripped off... this is all just to give you a
better idea of how the system works, and why you MUST check it out for
yourself BEFORE they get their hands on your ride.

Now, if it was me, I would be back talking to the service manage. I'd
get some answers as to what the schedule says for the repair(s), and
what their shop rates are. I have had service managers look over my
receipt and say.... 'well, gee, it appears we made an error. Let me
refigure this. We have a new employee in the accounting section.' And
a few minutes later, I get a refund for $X and an apology for the
error the "new employee" made when totaling up the bill. Did they do
anything wrong? Usually, no. But the last thing most shops want is bad
PR. Better to lose a few bucks on job, and not lose customers who will
be repeats.


On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:03:38 -0400, "Michael J. Delaglio"
> wrote:

>Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the way
>down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it was
>TP issue .
>
>Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it
>is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put one
>in.
>
>The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
>Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>
>They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>
> I absolutely dont believe it.
>
>Comments on the labor charge ???
>
>Michael
>


Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
  #7  
Old October 5th 05, 01:26 AM
Michael J. Delaglio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Me" > wrote in message ...
> Most likely, the tech spent a ton of time chasing the wrong thing and they
> made you pay for it. I would first find out what that job should have cost
> with another dealership. Then have a talk with the service manager. If the
> prices are that far out of line, you might have to go up the chain of
> command to the general manager or even the owner to get a compromise. Did
> it set a code?
>


According to the bill it reports that they retreived codes of P0171, P0174
& P1507. All must have related to the idle control valve. Replacement of
that valve calls for less then one full hour; $94.00 MAX !!!

To be honest, when they called to give me the total bill with tax of $
824.33, I was thinking exactly they same thing that you did. I thought that
they might have removed the plastic intake manifold thinking it was cracked
only to find out that it was somthing else. When I got the car back, the
first thing I did was to check to see if the intake might have come out. I
saw no idication of that.

They just decided to rip me off.

I'm going to call the maintenance manager tommorow and question him/her
about it.

I'll be sure to post my results.

Michael


  #8  
Old October 5th 05, 01:31 AM
Michael J. Delaglio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Joe" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "John C." > wrote in message
>> news:1kD0f.2695$WD5.471@trndny06...
>>>
>>> "Michael J. Delaglio" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all
>>>> the way
>>>> down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I
>>>> figured it was
>>>> TP issue .
>>>>
>>>> Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in
>>>> and it
>>>> is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to
>>>> put one
>>>> in.
>>>>
>>>> The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB
>>>> (Throtle Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>>>>
>>>> They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>>>>
>>>> I absolutely dont believe it.
>>>>
>>>> Comments on the labor charge ???
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ouch! It must have taken 7 hours and 50 minutes to troubleshoot.
>>> That place
>>> must have some real cracker-jack techs.
>>> --
>>> John C.
>>> '03 Cobra Convt.
>>>

>>
>> "Cracker-jack techs".... LOL Good one !!! The part that was
>> replaced is directly responsible for the idle control. I took the
>> car in for an idle problem. It sould be the first thing that they
>> check or at least one of the first things. I'm always the first to
>> give a tech the benifit of the doubt because I used to fix cars
>> myself at a VW place during my first two years of college way back in
>> 1986-1988. Lots of air-cooled bugs and the like. I always remember
>> how just about every customer wanted to know why the repairs would
>> cost so much. They all wanted to pay twenty bucks to have a clutch
>> job done.
>>
>> In my case here, $ 567.00 labor to diagnose an obvious problem and
>> then do ten minutes of remove-replace is totally out of hand. It was
>> a straight-up rip-off !!!!!
>>
>> Michael

>
> Write the GM of the dealership and tell him/her how angry you are and
> that they've lost a customer for life.
>
> Include copies of the repair including the cost. Tell the GM that the
> job was a complete rip-off considering what was done.
>
> Also tell him/her that if it took that long to diagnose the problem,
> they've got morons working as techs there and you won't be returning
> simply because of that.
>
> Finally, tell them that you're going to complain to corporate about the
> entire thing, and you'll be using the GM's name.
>
> If you don't get a reply, you at least have the small satisfaction of
> informing corporate that they've got some rip-off artists at work.
>
> If you get a reply, perhaps they'll try to make amends or at least
> offer you some kind of compensation. Might be worth a shot.
>
> Joe
> Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
> Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC


No question. I'm going to start by calling the service manager and question
the labor charge. I got my first new Mustang from this dealer back in 1990.
It was an LX 5.0. I traded in to them in 2000 and got a new GT. So far
that makes two cars and plenty of maintenance tickets I have given to them
for the past fifteen years. My thanks from them is to get ripped-off in the
extream.

Michael


  #9  
Old October 5th 05, 02:10 AM
Michael J. Delaglio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Spike" > wrote in message
...
> What is the shop/dealer hourly labor rate?
> How long was the car in the shop?
> Any tax?
>
> First, you said it was a dealer. Dealers, generally, have higher rates
> than independent shops. Many businesses which sell items, make up the
> bulk of the business income from after market repair.
>
> Shop should have a schedule (either book or computer program) of time
> to repair by item.
>
> So, you should have had a computer (probably) diagnosis for $X (since
> we do not know if they have a flat diagnosis rate, how long it took to
> diagnose, or what the shop hourly rate is). Of course, if it didn't
> show up in computer diagnosis then it's down to manual trace. The time
> for that is not set. (Lots of good mechanics out there, but more and
> more, computers are dumbing them down.)
>
> Then, once the problem is identified, it might only take 10 minutes to
> actually repair, but the schedule might say 45 minutes.... for part
> "A". It might say 25 minutes for part "B". These are billed
> individually. Just because the mechanic can do both within the 40
> minutes listed for part "A", don't expect that to be it.
>
> On top of that, many shops charge to the next higher half hour or
> hour. This you need to know BEFORE you take it in. The hourly rate
> might be $80 per hour.... or any portion of that hour. So, you pay $80
> for an hour, or $80 for 15 minutes, or $160 for 1 hour and 7 minutes.
>
> So, now you have
> Diagnosis unk hr @ $80/hr ...................................$ unk
> Part "A"............................................... ........$101.17
> Part "A" 40 min @ $80/hr ..................................$ 80.00
> Part "B" $100 ...............................................$10 0.00
> Part "B" 25 min @ $80/ht ..................................$ 80.00
> .................................................. ....Sub T $361.17+
> ..........................................CA Tax 7.75% $ 27.99+
> .................................................. ....Sub T $389.16+
> .................................................. .You paid $768.17
> ................................................Di fference $379.00
>
> I'll take a guess that your car was in a dealer shop for at least 4
> hours... your labor only works out to $141.75 per hour. Steep, but not
> unheard of in some localities. (Go to someplace like San Francisco and
> have a car repaired in the city.)
>
> Not to say you didn't get ripped off... this is all just to give you a
> better idea of how the system works, and why you MUST check it out for
> yourself BEFORE they get their hands on your ride.
>
> Now, if it was me, I would be back talking to the service manage. I'd
> get some answers as to what the schedule says for the repair(s), and
> what their shop rates are. I have had service managers look over my
> receipt and say.... 'well, gee, it appears we made an error. Let me
> refigure this. We have a new employee in the accounting section.' And
> a few minutes later, I get a refund for $X and an apology for the
> error the "new employee" made when totaling up the bill. Did they do
> anything wrong? Usually, no. But the last thing most shops want is bad
> PR. Better to lose a few bucks on job, and not lose customers who will
> be repeats.
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:03:38 -0400, "Michael J. Delaglio"
> > wrote:
>
>>Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the
>>way
>>down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it
>>was
>>TP issue .
>>
>>Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it
>>is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put
>>one
>>in.
>>
>>The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle
>>Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
>>
>>They also charged $ 567.00 for the labor.
>>
>> I absolutely dont believe it.
>>
>>Comments on the labor charge ???
>>
>>Michael
>>

>
> Spike
> 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
> Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
> 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
> 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.


Hey, Spike. Thanx for your detailed explanation of how the rates work. I'm
up on all that myself because I worked full time hours as a certified
mechanic for a VW/German car repair shop for just over two years back in
1986-1988 while I was in my first two years of college. When the college
work got to heavy in my third year, I stopped working at the garage. We
specialized in air cooled German cars, including vintage Porce models. We
also did all the four cylender fule injected VW's like the Rabbit. I did
general maintenance/repair work as well and engine and trans rebuilds. We
had a fixed labor rate there per hour.

The area that I live in, northeast NJ is an expensive area as far as rates
go. The Ford dealer that just did the repair on my 2000 GT has a labor rate
of $94.00/hr. They got a code on the problem. Even if there was no code,
and there were codes, that problem should not take any great skill or
experience to figure out. I mean, come on. It was taken in for an idle
problem. The car would stall dead unless you kept on the gas. The first
thing to check is the bloody idle control valve.

Given that they had codes, and that it was an obvious problem with an
obvious solution, I cant see them calling it more then one full hour to
correct the problem. I'd pay $94.00 or may be at the most twice that. Not $
567.00 in labor !!!

I know when I worked as a pro it was twenty years ago and systems werent so
fancy and all, but I'd equate diagnosing and changing the idle control valve
on a 2000 GT with diagnosing/replacing an air flow sensor on an old fuel
injected VW. It isnt too tuff of a job. I couldent imagine charging over
five hours of labor for a fifteen minute job.

Michael




  #10  
Old October 5th 05, 02:45 AM
Spike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:10:01 -0400, "Michael J. Delaglio"
> wrote:

>


>Hey, Spike. Thanx for your detailed explanation of how the rates work. I'm
>up on all that myself because I worked full time hours as a certified
>mechanic for a VW/German car repair shop for just over two years back in
>1986-1988 while I was in my first two years of college. When the college
>work got to heavy in my third year, I stopped working at the garage. We
>specialized in air cooled German cars, including vintage Porce models. We
>also did all the four cylender fule injected VW's like the Rabbit. I did
>general maintenance/repair work as well and engine and trans rebuilds. We
>had a fixed labor rate there per hour.


You mentioned the prior employment, but that does not mean you
understand how the accounting is done. I know a number of mechanics
who can tune a race car at Indy by ear, but have no idea what it takes
to keep the team on the track.
>
>The area that I live in, northeast NJ is an expensive area as far as rates
>go. The Ford dealer that just did the repair on my 2000 GT has a labor rate
>of $94.00/hr. They got a code on the problem. Even if there was no code,
>and there were codes, that problem should not take any great skill or
>experience to figure out. I mean, come on. It was taken in for an idle
>problem. The car would stall dead unless you kept on the gas. The first
>thing to check is the bloody idle control valve.


The symptoms you described were, on my 91 TransAM GTA, a mechanic's
nightmare. No matter what the computer said (when it could detect a
problem) corrected the situation. In the end, it was not the idle
control, but both cats had gone at the same time. New cats, problem
gone... a few thousand dollars later.
>
>Given that they had codes, and that it was an obvious problem with an
>obvious solution, I cant see them calling it more then one full hour to
>correct the problem. I'd pay $94.00 or may be at the most twice that. Not $
>567.00 in labor !!!


Labor, not unusually, can run more than parts. It's pretty hard to
stand and look over the mechanic's shoulder with a stop watch, and I
have yet to see a shop where the mechanic uses a time card to begin
and end each task.

But, the schedule should give you an idea of what they billed for. As
you should know, there is also "down time" while waiting for
whatever... parts to be delivered if not in stock, a lift to be freed
up, the union required coffee break/meal break, etc. It all adds up.
And $94, that's not too bad in a lot of areas, but it does add up.
>
>I know when I worked as a pro it was twenty years ago and systems werent so
>fancy and all, but I'd equate diagnosing and changing the idle control valve
>on a 2000 GT with diagnosing/replacing an air flow sensor on an old fuel
>injected VW. It isnt too tuff of a job. I couldent imagine charging over
>five hours of labor for a fifteen minute job.


I no longer have the GTA. You can see what I have gone back to... a
car from my early 20s that I can actually work on without the need for
a $10K computer to tell me what is wrong. And today, I even looked at
a VW Bug. I can follow a flow chart to trace down a problem. Then,
when in doubt, start replacing parts with the cheapest thing to
replace. Too often people get a $400 radiator when all they needed was
a $6 thermostat. And the "dumbing down" I mentioned is a growing
problem. Go to a parts store and the clerk has no idea what you want
or what it does but he/she can look it up in a book. I saw it in my
step son. He could do the work as long as he could use his
calculator. Ask him how and why something works a certain way and he
has no idea.

Colleges and technical schools (not all, of course) are turning out
mechanics who can turn a wrench and change a part... as long as the
computer tells them which part needs the work. Even my sister
believed that the only way to do accounting was exactly as she was
taught in college. When she went to work she kept losing very good
jobs. And it's all part of the "throw away economy". Cars are headed
the same way as cell phones, computers, etc. When it breaks, toss it
and get a new one with new bells and whistles.

Again, I'd go back to the service manager, and politely but firmly
inquire how they figured $200 in parts was going to total over $700,
for what should have taken about a half hour for any skilled mechanic.

I lived in upstate NY, and Cape Cod. The NE ain't cheap. Good luck.
>
>Michael
>
>
>


Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
 




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