What size nut goes onto a typical US passenger tire Schrader valve?

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:15:44 -0500:

> The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not -
> it needs to stretch with the tube.

But how do you know a radial patch by sight and look and feel?
Is there a way to tell?

> I have not seen a "non-radial" tire
> carcass patch in years.

I'm not sure what that means.
Are you saying all patches sold in the auto parts stores are radial?

> A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way
> through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are
> best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple
> plug - and gotten away with it.

Your advice is fair that you have to patch the inside, seal the hole, and
ensure the belts aren't sharp. Nonetheless, both of us have gotten away
with "just" a plug and just a patch.

> The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die
> grinder" or drill.

I figured a "drill" might tear up the belts a bit too much though.
But the bit they use in tire shops seems like something we all should have
at home because it makes a screw puncture a standard size and it smoothes
out the belt tear I would think.

> An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the
> interior and putting a patch over it.

I like that idea, in that you install the standard plug, and then you cut
and grind it flush, and then patch over that to protect the inside.

I need to find where to get, for homeowners, small amounts of that black
goop they paste over the patch when they're done, at a tire shop.

I'm sure I can find industrial sizes, but we patch one tire a year, so,
small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).

> No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.

Yup. Too much flexing going on there.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:27:15 -0500:

> "you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky"
> pretty well defines today's market place.

Actually, I disagree completely that "you get what you pay for", since
again, that's saying that quality and price are locked in step, and they're
just not.

Here, in California, it's a million bucks for a 2000 sq foot POS house.
In Texas, that house would be 50K or less.

The quality is the same.
The price is very different.

You really get what OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR, in that the way economics 101
works is that the price of something is based on what other (idiots mostly)
are willing to pay for.

So, for example, at Safeway, the lettuce is 2 dollars a head consistently
whereas at Trader Joes, it's 1 dollar a head for the same quality lettuce.

How the hell can Safeway charge double?
The answer is that OTHER PEOPLE are buying that lettuce.

If Trader Joe was out of lettuce, I'd be stuck paying what OTHER PEOPLE pay
for if I wanted or needed a head of lettuce.

The quality would be the same in both cases.

> Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to
> warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we
> pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with
> quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and
> handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.

I agree with you that manufacturing is only part of the total cost of an
object. In some cases, manufacturing is almost nothing, and where storage
is the biggest expense.

Take o-rings for example. How much do they really cost? How much do they
sell for in the auto-parts store? The expense is not in manufacturing since
they make tens of thousands at a time. The expense is in everything else,
as you noted.

Even in the case of tires, look at the expense in California:
Tire itself = about 100 bucks
Sales tax = about ten percent of that
Eco fees = about five or six bucks
Shipping from Tire Rack = about 16 bucks each (UPS ground)
Installation & balancing = about 20 bucks each
Disposal fee = about 3 bucks each
California tax on the disposal fee = about a quarter but do they have to
tax everything?
etc.

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:

> Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
> particularly to do a decent job "at home"

Fair enough assessment.

> Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment

Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
at the tire shops. Not once.

> Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
> terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
> tools.

Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.

> Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
> vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
> alignment" unless something bends or wears.

I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
new set of tires (which is about every two years).

> And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
> there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
> left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
> has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.

As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
adjustments anyway.

However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.

But at home, my hypothesis is that only camber and toe need to be measured
for my car (and many others) since that's all you can adjust anyway.

Both can be measured with home tools to reasonable accuracy (is my
hypothesis); but I haven't tried it myself yet.

> And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the
> car is sitting level to start with -

Fair enough that you need a level garage (or you need to level the car by
using linoleum tiles under the wheels). And you have to set the vehicle
ride height (which, for my car, requires about 500 pounds of weight).

But all of that is doable in a home garage.

> What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer
> edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of
> the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks
> to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -

This is a good point. I have always done my toe to the centerpoint line
scribed on both tires, especially when it's to the centerpoint of the
underside of the vehicle - but - to your point - any reference measurement
can be used.

To my point, it's just a measurement of distance, and it doesn't have to be
to the ten thousandths of an inch - so it just has to be a decently good
measurement, which is certainly doable in a home garage.

The problem I have run into most is that you can't get a straight string
across the underside of the car becuase of protruding stuff but that's why
a C-shaped jig would work for that.

> Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper
> alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being
> charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.

I think aproximately zero cars are aligned correctly, based only on my
experience with my car at "normal" alignement shops. So, again, if you want
your car's alignment to be done right, you often have to do it yourself
(or, in my case, you have to bring your own weights to the shop!).

> That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and
> former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good
> front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat
> rate and choke on their come-backs.
>
> You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.

Heh heh ... I'm the shop's worst nightmare.
The reason is that I WATCH what they do.

I have NEVER in my entire life, for example, seen a tire installed corretly
at a tire shop. Not once. I can give you a littany of errors that they
make, and they have thrice given me the job for free because I had to
complain to their management.

Never once have I seen a shop do my model of vehicle properly for alignment
either.

In both cases (alignment and tires), if you want it done right, then you
have to do it yourself. So, while I do very much respect your advice and
judgement, the one thing I have to tell you is that I'm fussy as hell when
I'm paying someone else to do THEIR job right (and no mechanic ever does).

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:57 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
> wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:23:31 -0500:
>
>> We have been our own worst enemy, because we systematically shop by
>> price. The auto parts stores, just like Walmart, carry what YOU as the
>> consumer wants - low price. (Which usually translates to low quality
>> on non-perishables)
>
>Yup. We agree. I've seen people buy EE friction grade (cold/hot) brake pads
>for more money than FF or GG pads cost. They don't know what they're doing,
>and the auto part store guy doesn't know any more either.
>
>Pretty much, I go to the auto parts store for stuff that I need now, and
>that's pretty much all I get there.
>
>Certainly I never buy any replacement parts there (e.g., never an
>alternator or a radiator) but I might get belts there if I need them now.
In my experience I can usually buy my Ford parts cheaper (or at least
the same price for the same quality) at the dealers.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
> wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:15:44 -0500:
>
>> The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not -
>> it needs to stretch with the tube.
>
>But how do you know a radial patch by sight and look and feel?
>Is there a way to tell?
>
Real easy. 99.9% of the time it will just say "radial repair patch"
on it.
>> I have not seen a "non-radial" tire
>> carcass patch in years.
>
>I'm not sure what that means.
>Are you saying all patches sold in the auto parts stores are radial?
Or inner tube patches, more likely.
>
>> A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way
>> through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are
>> best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple
>> plug - and gotten away with it.
>
>Your advice is fair that you have to patch the inside, seal the hole, and
>ensure the belts aren't sharp. Nonetheless, both of us have gotten away
>with "just" a plug and just a patch.
>
>> The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die
>> grinder" or drill.
>
>I figured a "drill" might tear up the belts a bit too much though.

Not a "drill bit" - a "reamer"
>But the bit they use in tire shops seems like something we all should have
>at home because it makes a screw puncture a standard size and it smoothes
>out the belt tear I would think.
>
>> An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the
>> interior and putting a patch over it.
>
>I like that idea, in that you install the standard plug, and then you cut
>and grind it flush, and then patch over that to protect the inside.
>
>I need to find where to get, for homeowners, small amounts of that black
>goop they paste over the patch when they're done, at a tire shop.

Much farther ahead to just pay to have it done properly. ( you DO
know that concept, righthe amount of materials you need to buy, and
the FACT that those supplies deteriorate with age and most likely will
be useless the next time you need it, means you are cheaper long-term
to pay to have it done in the first place unless you get a LOT of
punctures.
>
>I'm sure I can find industrial sizes, but we patch one tire a year, so,
>small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).

As said above - you will NEVER come out ahead by buying the stuff and
keeping it on hand for one or two punctures a year - or one every year
or two.
>
>> No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.
>
>Yup. Too much flexing going on there.
And too close to the edge of the belt.

I find it mildly ammusing that 2 falacies pervade usenet.
The first is that it's always cheaper to buy on-line
and
The second is that it's always cheaper to do it yourself.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:43:59 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
> wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:27:15 -0500:
>
>> "you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky"
>> pretty well defines today's market place.
>
>Actually, I disagree completely that "you get what you pay for", since
>again, that's saying that quality and price are locked in step, and they're
>just not.

READ for Crypes sakes!!!! I said you ONLY get what you pay for -
>
>Here, in California, it's a million bucks for a 2000 sq foot POS house.
>In Texas, that house would be 50K or less.
>
>The quality is the same.
>The price is very different.

As is the location - which has a lot to do with VALUE. It is VALUE
that you are looking for - not quality.
Value is the quality/price ratio.
If you want to live in Taft or any of a hundred or more hell-holes in
California you can buy your house for less than you can build it for
too. The HOUSE quality may be the same, but the neighbourhood sure
isn't. There's a REASON people won't pay as much for the house in Taft
, or any of the other little california outposts as they will in the
valley, or the bay area.
>
>You really get what OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR, in that the way economics 101
>works is that the price of something is based on what other (idiots mostly)
>are willing to pay for.

The VALUE of something is also sometimes described as what the
highest bidder is willing to pay for something at any given time and
place.
>
>So, for example, at Safeway, the lettuce is 2 dollars a head consistently
>whereas at Trader Joes, it's 1 dollar a head for the same quality lettuce.
>
>How the hell can Safeway charge double?
>The answer is that OTHER PEOPLE are buying that lettuce.
>
>If Trader Joe was out of lettuce, I'd be stuck paying what OTHER PEOPLE pay
>for if I wanted or needed a head of lettuce.

Trader Joe's cost of inventory and handling are MUCH lower than the
supermarket.. The "level of service" is also different. For some
people that changes the "value" of shopping at Trader Joes vs the
supermarket.
>
>The quality would be the same in both cases.
>
>> Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to
>> warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we
>> pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with
>> quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and
>> handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.
>
>I agree with you that manufacturing is only part of the total cost of an
>object. In some cases, manufacturing is almost nothing, and where storage
>is the biggest expense.
>
>Take o-rings for example. How much do they really cost? How much do they
>sell for in the auto-parts store? The expense is not in manufacturing since
>they make tens of thousands at a time. The expense is in everything else,
>as you noted.
>
>Even in the case of tires, look at the expense in California:
>Tire itself = about 100 bucks
>Sales tax = about ten percent of that
>Eco fees = about five or six bucks
>Shipping from Tire Rack = about 16 bucks each (UPS ground)
>Installation & balancing = about 20 bucks each
>Disposal fee = about 3 bucks each
>California tax on the disposal fee = about a quarter but do they have to
>tax everything?
>etc.
You want to buy tires in Ontario (Canada, not California)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
> wrote:

wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:
>
>> Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
>> particularly to do a decent job "at home"
>
>Fair enough assessment.
>
>> Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment
>
>Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
>Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
>But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
>yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
>at the tire shops. Not once.

Well, I'll respectfully dissagree. There is NO WAY you can
"dynamically" ballance a tire on a $200 Harbour Fright ballancer. All
you can do is static balance it - which might be ok on an old 4x4 or a
Yugo. Balancing the tire from the inside to outside, or quadrant to
quadrant is REQUIRED for a good high speed balance.

I've had cars where 1/4 ounce of dynamic inbalance caused a tire
shimmy on a customer's car (admittedly at well over the legal speed
limit.) Can't get that fine with a bubble balancer.
>
>> Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
>> terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
>> tools.
>
>Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
>and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.

It's what you CAN'T adjust that you need to measure!!! If parts are
worn or bent, you don't know unless you can measure.
>
>> Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
>> vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
>> alignment" unless something bends or wears.
>
>I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
>alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
>know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
>new set of tires (which is about every two years).

A good pothole can BEND things. Adjustments can compensate for some
of that damage.
>
>> And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
>> there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
>> left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
>> has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.
>
>As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
>have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
>only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
>adjustments anyway.

If you own the car and hit a bad pothole YOU can knock the caster
out. If YOU own the car and slide into a curb, you can tweak the
uni-body, knocking the track out. You can do all kinds of things tht
CAN change the alignment parrameters you cannot measure - and just
because they are not "adjustable" doesn't mean they are not important,
or that they cannot be fixed.

I KNOW. I did that stuff for a living for over twenty years. There are
many ways to correct "non-adjustable" adjustments.
>
>However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
>steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
>shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.
>
>But at home, my hypothesis is that only camber and toe need to be measured
>for my car (and many others) since that's all you can adjust anyway.
>
>Both can be measured with home tools to reasonable accuracy (is my
>hypothesis); but I haven't tried it myself yet.
>
>> And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the
>> car is sitting level to start with -
>
>Fair enough that you need a level garage (or you need to level the car by
>using linoleum tiles under the wheels). And you have to set the vehicle
>ride height (which, for my car, requires about 500 pounds of weight).
>
>But all of that is doable in a home garage.
>
>> What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer
>> edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of
>> the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks
>> to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -
>
>This is a good point. I have always done my toe to the centerpoint line
>scribed on both tires, especially when it's to the centerpoint of the
>underside of the vehicle - but - to your point - any reference measurement
>can be used.

No, not just ANY reference. Any ACCURATE refference. The car isn't a
Bimmer by chance????
>
>To my point, it's just a measurement of distance, and it doesn't have to be
>to the ten thousandths of an inch - so it just has to be a decently good
>measurement, which is certainly doable in a home garage.
>

It needs to be accurate to within .01 degrees on many cars. That is
pretty "granular"

>The problem I have run into most is that you can't get a straight string
>across the underside of the car becuase of protruding stuff but that's why
>a C-shaped jig would work for that.
Boy, you are sounding an awfull lot like the guy asking about using
his cell phone to align his Bimmer.
>> Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper
>> alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being
>> charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.
>
>I think aproximately zero cars are aligned correctly, based only on my
>experience with my car at "normal" alignement shops. So, again, if you want
>your car's alignment to be done right, you often have to do it yourself
>(or, in my case, you have to bring your own weights to the shop!).

You have absolutely ZERO chance of aligning your car anywhere NEAR as
close to correct as even the worst alignment shop - and I can assure
you EVERY car that left my shop after an alignment WAS properly
aligned. Every one that left my brother's alignment rack was also
properly aligned. Every one road trested after the alignment as well.

And exactly what weights are you bringing yo the "alignment shop"?
>
>> That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and
>> former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good
>> front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat
>> rate and choke on their come-backs.
>>
>> You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.
>
>Heh heh ... I'm the shop's worst nightmare.
>The reason is that I WATCH what they do.
>
>I have NEVER in my entire life, for example, seen a tire installed corretly
>at a tire shop. Not once. I can give you a littany of errors that they
>make, and they have thrice given me the job for free because I had to
>complain to their management.

You are the kind of customer that I would "fire" by the second time
you came into the shop. If you don't trust your mechanic, get the hell
out and stay out.

You think you are smarter than everyone else - and you are a cheap=ass
on top of it all.

What do YOU do for a living????
Like I told a doctor customer of mine who bitched because it took 2
tries to fix an intermittent problem on his expensive car - I
guarantee my work and fix my mistakes - you just bury yours. That shut
the wize-ass up!!.
>
>Never once have I seen a shop do my model of vehicle properly for alignment
>either.
>
>In both cases (alignment and tires), if you want it done right, then you
>have to do it yourself. So, while I do very much respect your advice and
>judgement, the one thing I have to tell you is that I'm fussy as hell when
>I'm paying someone else to do THEIR job right (and no mechanic ever does).

And YOU are going to do it right without the equipment and ebven the
knowlege of how to do it?? And I don't mean watching You-tube videos.

Your disrespect of my first chosen profession is duly noted - and one
reason many GOOD mechanics have left the business - leaving guys like
you to fend for yourself. I took enough abuse in just under 25 years
to do me for the rest of my life. -which is why I'll soon be retiring
from my "second chosen profession" after 27 years

In article >,
says...
>
> >small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).
>
> As said above - you will NEVER come out ahead by buying the stuff and
> keeping it on hand for one or two punctures a year - or one every year
> or two.
> >
> >> No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.
> >
> >Yup. Too much flexing going on there.
> And too close to the edge of the belt.
>
> I find it mildly ammusing that 2 falacies pervade usenet.
> The first is that it's always cheaper to buy on-line
> and
> The second is that it's always cheaper to do it yourself.

The last tires I bought were form a place that repairs them and rotates
them for 'free'. My wife did something and bent a rim. I brought them
a rim and they replaced the tire and ballanced it for free.

I think I have had one flat in about 12 years not counting that bent
rim.

posted for all of us...


>
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 06:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
> > wrote:
>
> wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:46:06 -0500:
> >
> >> Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks -
> >> particularly to do a decent job "at home"
> >
> >Fair enough assessment.
> >
> >> Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment
> >
> >Harbor Freight has everything you need, for under $200 overall.
> >Out here, that's about 10 tires to break even on the tools.
> >But the best thing is that you get the job done right when you do it
> >yourself, because I have NEVER seen a tire-changing job done correctly yet
> >at the tire shops. Not once.
>
> Well, I'll respectfully dissagree. There is NO WAY you can
> "dynamically" ballance a tire on a $200 Harbour Fright ballancer. All
> you can do is static balance it - which might be ok on an old 4x4 or a
> Yugo. Balancing the tire from the inside to outside, or quadrant to
> quadrant is REQUIRED for a good high speed balance.
>
> I've had cars where 1/4 ounce of dynamic inbalance caused a tire
> shimmy on a customer's car (admittedly at well over the legal speed
> limit.) Can't get that fine with a bubble balancer.
> >
> >> Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not
> >> terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special
> >> tools.
> >
> >Depends on the vehicle, but my sedan only has adjustments for rear camber
> >and front-and-back toe, so, for me, that's all I'd need to measure.
>
> It's what you CAN'T adjust that you need to measure!!! If parts are
> worn or bent, you don't know unless you can measure.
> >
> >> Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the
> >> vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of
> >> alignment" unless something bends or wears.
> >
> >I'm not so sure of that, because any good pothole can knock something off
> >alignment but I can't argue the issue becuase I don't really know. I just
> >know that I've seen it recommended to get the suspension aligned with each
> >new set of tires (which is about every two years).
>
> A good pothole can BEND things. Adjustments can compensate for some
> of that damage.
> >
> >> And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if
> >> there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the
> >> left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it
> >> has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame.
> >
> >As you stated, if you have owned the car, then you know pretty much only
> >have to deal with alignment drifting out of whack over time so a check of
> >only toe and camber will do for cars, such as mine, that have no other
> >adjustments anyway.
>
> If you own the car and hit a bad pothole YOU can knock the caster
> out. If YOU own the car and slide into a curb, you can tweak the
> uni-body, knocking the track out. You can do all kinds of things tht
> CAN change the alignment parrameters you cannot measure - and just
> because they are not "adjustable" doesn't mean they are not important,
> or that they cannot be fixed.
>
> I KNOW. I did that stuff for a living for over twenty years. There are
> many ways to correct "non-adjustable" adjustments.
> >
> >However, if you're buying a car, then by all means, have the tracking,
> >steering axis inclination, ride height, etc., all checked at an alighment
> >shop who has the tools to measure anything and everything.
> >

Oh Clare, lower your blood pressure. I believe it is the alignment troll.
They are cheap asses whom think they know it all and can fix it for free
with everybody else's help. I am surprised they don't invite people over to
help them (actually do the work). Alignment racks are a thing of beauty
these days. Rather than strings and bubbles they use lasers. Out of specs
are printed out and adjustments verified. This guy is jabbering about nuts
on valve stems???

--
Tekkie

=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= > wrote:
>They are cheap asses whom think they know it all and can fix it for free
>with everybody else's help. I am surprised they don't invite people over to
>help them (actually do the work). Alignment racks are a thing of beauty
>these days. Rather than strings and bubbles they use lasers. Out of specs
>are printed out and adjustments verified. This guy is jabbering about nuts
>on valve stems???

The problem, at least here, is that there are very few shops that can actually
do a competent alignment.

We used to have a place called Davis Alignment Service that had both some
laser systems and some mechanical measurement gear from the sixties, and
you could go in and expect to drive away with either a solid alignment or
a good diagnosis about why the car isn't going to align properly. You
could explain how you wanted the car to feel and they could adjust the
alignment to match your request.

Today what we have are shops that have automatic digital alignment systems.
They put the car on the system, it prints out some numbers, they put in
some shims and drive the car off. Tie rod ends bad? They won't notice,
they'll put some shims in anyway. You want a little more oversteer? They
will look at you like some kind of alien. "The factory manual says we
are supposed to set this parameter to this and we won't set it any other
way."

Because it's very difficult now to find someone who can actually align the
vehicle who knows what they are doing, a lot of people are interested in
doing alignment at home. Can you blame them?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."