How would you store a mildly used electric fuel pump?

uncle_vito wrote:

>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>
>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>
>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>> tank full.
>>
>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>> shortens its life.
>>
>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you will
>> have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>
>>
>
> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and
> there
> is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching. That means
> there must be brushes and slip rings. I have always wondered how
> sparking
> does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if the pump is totally
> submerged, but how about if you are running out of fuel. How do you
> prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?

Gasoline only ignites within a limited air-fuel mixture ratio. Too lean or,
more likely in the fuel tank, too rich and it won't ignite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Flammability

This is even more the case in modern cars, where the fuel tank is not vented
to the atmosphere but is a part of the vapor recovery system. There is very
little oxygen in there. This is also good because gas goes bad faster
exposed to air (oxygen).

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Time's fun when you're having flies. -- Kermit the Frog

"twk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, jim beam >
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/22/2013 08:07 AM, twk wrote:
>> > In article >,
>> > Vic Smith > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>> >>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in
>> >>> it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Suggestions?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Maybe coat it with a shot of WD-40 and wrap it in Saran wrap.
>> >> Then bag it.
>> >> I've got some fairly new parts coming off the car I'm junking
>> >> because
>> >> they'll fit my new car.
>> >> Alternator, starter motor, coil packs, spark module, A/C
>> >> compressor,
>> >> condenser.
>> >> Except for the condenser which I'll just plug, that's what I'm
>> >> thinking of doing. Might be years before I use them.
>> >> So I'm watching this to see other advice.
>> >> I'll have to go buy WD-40. Don't like it, but I hear this is what
>> >> it's made for.
>> >
>> > WD-40 won't harm the pump, but in a few months it will be gummed up
>> > quite well. It will then take a whole lot more WD-40 to free up all
>> > the
>> > moving parts again. I would suggest spraying it with a good grade
>> > of
>> > silicone oil. The silicone won't gum up, but will cost a bit more
>> > than
>> > twice as much as a can of WD. Go with the silicone spray.
>> >
>> > My $.02
>> >
>>
>> 1. "silicone spray" you buy at the automotive store or supermarket is
>> mostly petroleum distillate - i.e. mostly stuff like wd40. the
>> percentage of silicone is minimal.
>>
>> 2. silicone in fuel will quickly screw up oxygen sensors.
>>
>> on both counts, either don't bother with anything, or just use wd40.
>> it's not like it turns into cosmoline.
>
> 1. I did say a "good grade" of silicon oil. Maybe I should have said
> a
> high percentage of silicone. I have a 100% silicone oil spray on my
> shelf right now. It was about 3x the price of WD-40 and well worth it.
>
> 2. I also didn't mean to flood the pump with the entire contents of
> the
> can. A light coating inside and out should protect the pump nicely.
> Hardly enough to damage any sensor.
>
> Something covered in WD-40 and wrapped in plastic, will get gummy in a
> couple of months time. No doubt about it.
>
>

Genie garage-door company offers a silicon lubricant that remains oily
for six months that I know of. I wonder if it would be a decent
"preservative".

--
Frank ess

On 03/22/2013 04:25 PM, twk wrote:
> In article >, jim beam >
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/22/2013 08:07 AM, twk wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> Vic Smith > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe coat it with a shot of WD-40 and wrap it in Saran wrap.
>>>> Then bag it.
>>>> I've got some fairly new parts coming off the car I'm junking because
>>>> they'll fit my new car.
>>>> Alternator, starter motor, coil packs, spark module, A/C compressor,
>>>> condenser.
>>>> Except for the condenser which I'll just plug, that's what I'm
>>>> thinking of doing. Might be years before I use them.
>>>> So I'm watching this to see other advice.
>>>> I'll have to go buy WD-40. Don't like it, but I hear this is what
>>>> it's made for.
>>>
>>> WD-40 won't harm the pump, but in a few months it will be gummed up
>>> quite well. It will then take a whole lot more WD-40 to free up all the
>>> moving parts again. I would suggest spraying it with a good grade of
>>> silicone oil. The silicone won't gum up, but will cost a bit more than
>>> twice as much as a can of WD. Go with the silicone spray.
>>>
>>> My $.02
>>>
>>
>> 1. "silicone spray" you buy at the automotive store or supermarket is
>> mostly petroleum distillate - i.e. mostly stuff like wd40. the
>> percentage of silicone is minimal.
>>
>> 2. silicone in fuel will quickly screw up oxygen sensors.
>>
>> on both counts, either don't bother with anything, or just use wd40.
>> it's not like it turns into cosmoline.
>
> 1. I did say a "good grade" of silicon oil. Maybe I should have said a
> high percentage of silicone. I have a 100% silicone oil spray on my
> shelf right now. It was about 3x the price of WD-40 and well worth it.
>
> 2. I also didn't mean to flood the pump with the entire contents of the
> can. A light coating inside and out should protect the pump nicely.
> Hardly enough to damage any sensor.

that's supposition, not fact. silicone is a known issue with sensors.
even the traces that can leach from solid rtv "gasket" can be a problem.


>
> Something covered in WD-40 and wrapped in plastic, will get gummy in a
> couple of months time. No doubt about it.

i've got stuff in plastic bags that's got wd40 on it. has been stored
that way for nearly 10 years. no "gumminess" at all. maybe your stuff
had grease in it which leached out?


--
fact check required

On 03/22/2013 02:14 PM, uncle_vito wrote:
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>
>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>
>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas tank
>> full.
>>
>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do the
>> same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is no
>> gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which shortens
>> its life.
>>
>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you will
>> have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>
>>
>
> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and there
> is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching. That means
> there must be brushes and slip rings.

technically, those two statements are not logically connected. all the
fans in your computer are brushless dc fans with no external circuitry.


> I have always wondered how sparking
> does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if the pump is totally
> submerged, but how about if you are running out of fuel. How do you
> prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?

most modern pumps have commutators bathed in fuel so there's no air in
there. even if there's insufficient fuel to run the engine, there's
still fuel in the pump. the commutators are even placed at the bottom
of the pump, just to make sure this remains so.


--
fact check required

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/22/2013 12:47 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>
>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>
>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>> tank full.
>>
>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>> shortens its life.
>>
>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>
> urban legend. when early fuel injection pumps failed, it was because they
> were cheap carp, not because they weren't getting any cooling. fuel
> circulates through the pump. as long as it's pumping, it's getting
> "cooled". [and why "cooling" is considered so important is a complete
> mystery. windshield wiper motors can run indefinitely "uncooled".]
>


Windshield wiper motors can be internally lubricated, this is a difficult
accomplishment in an environment that by it's very nature destroys the
lubracative qualities of oil and grease.

In nearly every case on the discussion forums that I participate in, the
people that need to replace fuel pumps report habitually driving around in
the sub-1/4 tank range and buying just enough gas to get to the next day or
the day after. The common thread among this group is low fuel and the need
for a fuel pump. In all of my years, the only time I replaced a fuel pump
was a year os so after buying a used car that I don't know the previous
history of. But, of all the cars that I have owned, only one has needed a
fuel pump. Granted, many of them were not fuel injected, so the fuel pump
was mechanical and mounted to the side of the engine block. But, I've owned
a fair share of fuel injected cars and trucks, and only one fuel pump. I
always fill the tank.

You can drive around with an empty gas tank if you want, but I'll continue
to be happy in the thought that a habitually full tank is better than an
habitually empty one when the fuel pumkp life is in question. I'll not lose
any sleep telling people to lean to keeping the tank filled rather than to
allow it to run on empty for extended periods.

On 03/23/2013 10:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 03/22/2013 12:47 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>
>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>
>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>> tank full.
>>>
>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>> shortens its life.
>>>
>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>
>> urban legend. when early fuel injection pumps failed, it was because
>> they were cheap carp, not because they weren't getting any cooling.
>> fuel circulates through the pump. as long as it's pumping, it's
>> getting "cooled". [and why "cooling" is considered so important is a
>> complete mystery. windshield wiper motors can run indefinitely
>> "uncooled".]
>>
>
>
> Windshield wiper motors can be internally lubricated, this is a
> difficult accomplishment in an environment that by it's very nature
> destroys the lubracative qualities of oil and grease.

you said "...no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs
hot which shortens its life...", so i pointed out that windshield wiper
motors run indefinitely without cooling. you didn't say anything about
lubrication, which is an entirely different topic.

if you're trying to say that fuel pumps are not lubricated, then you're
wrong there too - they use polymer bushings [like delrin] that are
sufficiently lubricated by the fuel that fills the pump when it's used
for the first time.


>
> In nearly every case on the discussion forums that I participate in, the
> people that need to replace fuel pumps report habitually driving around
> in the sub-1/4 tank range and buying just enough gas to get to the next
> day or the day after. The common thread among this group is low fuel and
> the need for a fuel pump. In all of my years, the only time I replaced a
> fuel pump was a year os so after buying a used car that I don't know the
> previous history of. But, of all the cars that I have owned, only one
> has needed a fuel pump. Granted, many of them were not fuel injected, so
> the fuel pump was mechanical and mounted to the side of the engine
> block. But, I've owned a fair share of fuel injected cars and trucks,
> and only one fuel pump. I always fill the tank.
>
> You can drive around with an empty gas tank if you want, but I'll
> continue to be happy in the thought that a habitually full tank is
> better than an habitually empty one when the fuel pumkp life is in
> question. I'll not lose any sleep telling people to lean to keeping the
> tank filled rather than to allow it to run on empty for extended periods.

you can go ahead and believe in urban legend all you want, but the fact
is that fuel pumps are fully internally saturated with fuel. any time
they're working and generating heat, they're circulating that liquid and
the heat is being carried away. [not that it's even an issue in the
first place, but hey.] if there's insufficient fuel to circulate, the
car's not going to work, and even if the ignition is left on, the pump
will be switched off after two seconds by the engine computer if the
engine stops running. thus, there is no situation in which heat can
possibly be a failure mode for the typical modern fuel pump.

early fuel injection pumps did indeed fail regularly, but they were not
the impeller types we see today. impellers don't have any touching
parts and have nothing to wear - they are as reliable as the electric
motor that drives them, and /that/ is reliable as its manufacturer wants
it to be - you don't have any influence over it.


--
fact check required

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/22/2013 08:07 AM, twk wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Vic Smith > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Maybe coat it with a shot of WD-40 and wrap it in Saran wrap.
>>> Then bag it.
>>> I've got some fairly new parts coming off the car I'm junking because
>>> they'll fit my new car.
>>> Alternator, starter motor, coil packs, spark module, A/C compressor,
>>> condenser.
>>> Except for the condenser which I'll just plug, that's what I'm
>>> thinking of doing. Might be years before I use them.
>>> So I'm watching this to see other advice.
>>> I'll have to go buy WD-40. Don't like it, but I hear this is what
>>> it's made for.
>>
>> WD-40 won't harm the pump, but in a few months it will be gummed up
>> quite well. It will then take a whole lot more WD-40 to free up all the
>> moving parts again. I would suggest spraying it with a good grade of
>> silicone oil. The silicone won't gum up, but will cost a bit more than
>> twice as much as a can of WD. Go with the silicone spray.
>>
>> My $.02
>>
>
> 1. "silicone spray" you buy at the automotive store or supermarket is
> mostly petroleum distillate - i.e. mostly stuff like wd40. the percentage
> of silicone is minimal.
>
> 2. silicone in fuel will quickly screw up oxygen sensors.
>
> on both counts, either don't bother with anything, or just use wd40. it's
> not like it turns into cosmoline.
>
>
> --
> fact check required

TRASH IT. You want nothing to do with reusing a mildly used and stored
one. I shudder at the thought of being broken down in a bad part of town.
Or along the side of a freeway where you can be killed by a drunk.

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote in message
...
> uncle_vito wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>
>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>> tank full.
>>>
>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>> shortens its life.
>>>
>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>> will
>>> have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and
>> there
>> is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching. That means
>> there must be brushes and slip rings. I have always wondered how
>> sparking
>> does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if the pump is totally
>> submerged, but how about if you are running out of fuel. How do you
>> prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?
>
> Gasoline only ignites within a limited air-fuel mixture ratio. Too lean
> or,
> more likely in the fuel tank, too rich and it won't ignite.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Flammability
>
> This is even more the case in modern cars, where the fuel tank is not
> vented
> to the atmosphere but is a part of the vapor recovery system. There is
> very
> little oxygen in there. This is also good because gas goes bad faster
> exposed to air (oxygen).
>
> --
> Paul Hovnanian
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Time's fun when you're having flies. -- Kermit the Frog

I hear all this reasoning but I also know that welders are very reluctant to
weld fuel tanks. I had a tank out of a motor home and they insisted it be
washed out completely with soapy water before he would weld on it.

I also know of a person that was going to weld on a fuel tanker truck at a
shop next door to where I was working. He put dry ice ( or something
similar) in the tank the night before to remove all the oxygen. The tank
blew up the next day as he was welding. He was instantly killed and body
parts were found over at our place of business. Perhaps a welding torch is
different that fuel pump commutation sparks, but why take any chance at
creating a fire or explosion?

On 3/24/2013 1:13 PM, uncle_vito wrote:
> "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote in message
> ...
>> uncle_vito wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>>
>>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>>> tank full.
>>>>
>>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>>> shortens its life.
>>>>
>>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>>> will
>>>> have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and
>>> there
>>> is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching. That means
>>> there must be brushes and slip rings. I have always wondered how
>>> sparking
>>> does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if the pump is totally
>>> submerged, but how about if you are running out of fuel. How do you
>>> prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?
>>
>> Gasoline only ignites within a limited air-fuel mixture ratio. Too lean
>> or,
>> more likely in the fuel tank, too rich and it won't ignite.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Flammability
>>
>> This is even more the case in modern cars, where the fuel tank is not
>> vented
>> to the atmosphere but is a part of the vapor recovery system. There is
>> very
>> little oxygen in there. This is also good because gas goes bad faster
>> exposed to air (oxygen).
>>
>> --
>> Paul Hovnanian
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Time's fun when you're having flies. -- Kermit the Frog
>
> I hear all this reasoning but I also know that welders are very reluctant to
> weld fuel tanks. I had a tank out of a motor home and they insisted it be
> washed out completely with soapy water before he would weld on it.
>
> I also know of a person that was going to weld on a fuel tanker truck at a
> shop next door to where I was working. He put dry ice ( or something
> similar) in the tank the night before to remove all the oxygen. The tank
> blew up the next day as he was welding. He was instantly killed and body
> parts were found over at our place of business. Perhaps a welding torch is
> different that fuel pump commutation sparks, but why take any chance at
> creating a fire or explosion?
>
>

If it's absolutely necessary, turn the thing so your work
area is up, fill with water as far as practicable, flash the
remainder with your torch before starting to clean or work
the area. Even soap or detergent with hot water will leave a
dangerous amount of flammable material in a tank and that is
effectively a bomb.

I have leaded in a new bottom panel on a gas tank and that
was the excellent advice I was given by a guy who grew old
without blowing one up. That said, a new tank, where readily
available, is a very good idea.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:33:53 -0500, AMuzi > wrote:


>
>If it's absolutely necessary, turn the thing so your work
>area is up, fill with water as far as practicable, flash the
>remainder with your torch before starting to clean or work
>the area. Even soap or detergent with hot water will leave a
>dangerous amount of flammable material in a tank and that is
>effectively a bomb.
>
>I have leaded in a new bottom panel on a gas tank and that
>was the excellent advice I was given by a guy who grew old
>without blowing one up. That said, a new tank, where readily
>available, is a very good idea.

Just get a new tank. I had a '76 Impala with a leaky seam due to
rust. I filled it with water and detergent 3 times, agitating and
sloshing it pretty good. Probably spent a couple hours just doing
that. Filled it a fourth time and had to tilt it to keep water from
the seam. As soon I put torch and solder to it damn near blew my head
off with the burst from the pump opening.
Went to the boneyard and got a perfect tank for 25 bucks, already
parted out.
Bought a new Lumina tank last year due to rust.
$99.99 at Autozone. I don't even think about putting heat on a gas
tank anymore. I count that as one of my all-time stupid moves.