Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?

About eighty, give or take. It wasn't a standard meeting, but a forum, for
six candidates who are running in the April 4 local election, for three open
slots. I went home thinking, "I am never, ever going to vote anywhere
again. This is insane." I had nightmares. I woke up at 4 AM, had some
milk and cookies, and restored my faith in the democratic process. I did
some research, compared it with my notes from the meeting, and came up with
two that I might vote for. People are insane here, I knew that. But to
listen to two hours of their sh*t, it's almost as petty as Spanish national
politics.

Get out there and vote, but know who you are voting for...

Earle

"twaldron" > wrote in message
news
> How many people are at your town council meeting in Silverton?
>
> tw
> __________________________________________________ ___________________
> 2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco
>
> "There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."
>
> Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940
>
> Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase')
> A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton
> capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II.
> __________________________________________________ ___________________
>
>
> Earle Horton wrote:
> > That's what makes me believe, that this "dry thread" nonsense, is
insane.
> > Nowhere else have I seen torque tightening specifications, for "dry
> > threads". It is always "lightly lubricated" threads. By the way,
"those
> > el-cheapo OEM lug nuts" that JD Adams is talking about, are probably
> > designed that way on purpose, to spare the wheel studs from the kind of
> > damage that those "heavily chromed, forged steel lugs" are going to be
> > dishing out.
> >
> > This is almost as much fun, as last night's Town Council meeting.
> >
> > Earle

Well, you do live in a place that takes a little extra character to
remain a resident....ever thought about running yourself?

tw
__________________________________________________ ___________________
2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase')
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton
capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II.
__________________________________________________ ___________________


Earle Horton wrote:
> About eighty, give or take. It wasn't a standard meeting, but a forum, for
> six candidates who are running in the April 4 local election, for three open
> slots. I went home thinking, "I am never, ever going to vote anywhere
> again. This is insane." I had nightmares. I woke up at 4 AM, had some
> milk and cookies, and restored my faith in the democratic process. I did
> some research, compared it with my notes from the meeting, and came up with
> two that I might vote for. People are insane here, I knew that. But to
> listen to two hours of their sh*t, it's almost as petty as Spanish national
> politics.
>
> Get out there and vote, but know who you are voting for...
>
> Earle
>
> "twaldron" > wrote in message
> news >
>>How many people are at your town council meeting in Silverton?
>>
>>tw
>>________________________________________________ _____________________
>>2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco
>>
>>"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."
>>
>>Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940
>>
>>Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase')
>>A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton
>>capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II.
>>________________________________________________ _____________________
>>
>>
>>Earle Horton wrote:
>>
>>>That's what makes me believe, that this "dry thread" nonsense, is
>
> insane.
>
>>>Nowhere else have I seen torque tightening specifications, for "dry
>>>threads". It is always "lightly lubricated" threads. By the way,
>
> "those
>
>>>el-cheapo OEM lug nuts" that JD Adams is talking about, are probably
>>>designed that way on purpose, to spare the wheel studs from the kind of
>>>damage that those "heavily chromed, forged steel lugs" are going to be
>>>dishing out.
>>>
>>>This is almost as much fun, as last night's Town Council meeting.
>>>
>>>Earle
>
>
>

Mike Romain > wrote in
:

> I live in the rust belt where everything rots long before it wears out
> and always go dry with capped nuts. With open nuts, I have used
> grease on top after it is tightened down.
>
> I have antiseize and use it everywhere else, but still not on wheel
> nuts.
>
> We just had to remove all my wheels a couple days ago and they came
> off easily. It's been a while since they were removed....
>
> Anyhow, just be aware that antiseize is considered a 'wet' torque.
>
> Mike
>


OK, so I would assume that using lock-tite would be a wet torque as well.
Are the (for example) motor-mount bolts I just torqued to 40 lbs too tight
because I used lock-tight?

How much of an adjustment would you need to make in the torque when using a
wet torque?

rufus

Bill,

We only have radio here, with the cable draped over the side of the
spectator's area. I take notes, in a mix of Spanish, English and German
that only I can make sense of. I like to look at the people. I get the
impression, that they are all trying to hide something.

There is no need for grease, when threats still work. The town is small,
and this is after all Western Colorado. I can forgive a certain amount of
particularism, from people who still have some regard for my property
rights.

Earle

"L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Earle,
> My Oceanside, Vista, Escondido, City Council meetings used to be
> televised by the cable company until they realized the looks like fools,
> quibble over the small stuff. And it's how harder to see that it takes
> about sixty thousand in grease to change a lot from residential, to
> apartment zoning.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Earle Horton wrote:
> >
> > That's what makes me believe, that this "dry thread" nonsense, is
insane.
> > Nowhere else have I seen torque tightening specifications, for "dry
> > threads". It is always "lightly lubricated" threads. By the way,
"those
> > el-cheapo OEM lug nuts" that JD Adams is talking about, are probably
> > designed that way on purpose, to spare the wheel studs from the kind of
> > damage that those "heavily chromed, forged steel lugs" are going to be
> > dishing out.
> >
> > This is almost as much fun, as last night's Town Council meeting.
> >
> > Earle

Found this on the net:

"Since dry vs wet can vary greatly, any structural bolts that would be
torqued under my supervision must be done per the AISC Calibrated torque
wrench method to verify proper tension. But since you people are mere
peons, not able to fully appreciate a Wilhelm-Skidmore bolt tensioner, I
would go off the following rule of thumb torque formula:


T=(KDW)/12=foot-pounds



where T= torque
K=friction factor
D= Nominal bolt diameter in decimal inches
W=clamp load in pounds
K=0.30 for nonplated fasteners, black finish
K=0.20 for electrodeposited zinc coatings
K=0.15-0.18 for oils
K=0.16 for cadmium electrodeposited coatings
K=0.12 for copper anti-seize compound



Standard practice is to tighten a bolt to 70-75% of the proof load. Proof
load is the point where a bolt will permanently deform more than 2%.



Let me know if you need any more schooling.



Jay



In a message dated 6/28/2002 11:30:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:"

Hi Samuel,
Another: http://www.engineersedge.com/torque.htm
T = Torque required (inch pounds)
F = Bolt tension desired (Axial Load) (pounds).
D = Nominal bolt diameter. (major dia.)
EQUATION: T = .2 D F (Dry)
As a Hot Rodder I assume all bolts and nuts to be oiled as that's
pot I drop them into, like just before I install a piston it is soaked
to ring depth in a pan full of oil. Torqued to my manuals specs, or look
for a site on the internet: http://members.tripod.com/torquespecs/
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Samuel Devlin wrote:
>
> Found this on the net:
>
> "Since dry vs wet can vary greatly, any structural bolts that would be
> torqued under my supervision must be done per the AISC Calibrated torque
> wrench method to verify proper tension. But since you people are mere
> peons, not able to fully appreciate a Wilhelm-Skidmore bolt tensioner, I
> would go off the following rule of thumb torque formula:
>
> T=(KDW)/12=foot-pounds
>
> where T= torque
> K=friction factor
> D= Nominal bolt diameter in decimal inches
> W=clamp load in pounds
> K=0.30 for nonplated fasteners, black finish
> K=0.20 for electrodeposited zinc coatings
> K=0.15-0.18 for oils
> K=0.16 for cadmium electrodeposited coatings
> K=0.12 for copper anti-seize compound
>
> Standard practice is to tighten a bolt to 70-75% of the proof load. Proof
> load is the point where a bolt will permanently deform more than 2%.
>
> Let me know if you need any more schooling.
>
> Jay
>
> In a message dated 6/28/2002 11:30:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> writes:"

Funny thing is that in the past, when I have had to install replacement
studs on cars, the replacements came new with some sort of lube on them.
You could feel it! IIRC those were TRW parts, purchased new from a very
well regarded local part store/engine rebuilding shop.


So, I'd say a very small, well distributed touch of grease should not be
a bad thing.

Regards,

DAve

rufus t wrote:
>
> Mike Romain > wrote in
> :
>
> > I live in the rust belt where everything rots long before it wears out
> > and always go dry with capped nuts. With open nuts, I have used
> > grease on top after it is tightened down.
> >
> > I have antiseize and use it everywhere else, but still not on wheel
> > nuts.
> >
> > We just had to remove all my wheels a couple days ago and they came
> > off easily. It's been a while since they were removed....
> >
> > Anyhow, just be aware that antiseize is considered a 'wet' torque.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> OK, so I would assume that using lock-tite would be a wet torque as well.
> Are the (for example) motor-mount bolts I just torqued to 40 lbs too tight
> because I used lock-tight?
>
> How much of an adjustment would you need to make in the torque when using a
> wet torque?
>
> rufus

Someone posted a list here a while back. When I rebuilt my CJ7 I went
about 30% less on the ones with antiseize and loctite on them. I didn't
snap anything and nothing fell off. I have pulled apart a lot of things
over the years and can sure 'feel' the difference when tightening up dry
or lubed threads. I learned way back that I can snap off greased up
bolts very easily....

I had to remove my spindle this week and all the nuts came off easy as
well as the spindle popped out fairly easily. A couple thumps and out
it came. The 5 or 6 year old antiseize was still in evidence.

Engine mount bolts are 'special' it would seem. I have heard of folks
that just plain can't tighten them right so they always end up with
snapped ones.

Snapped ones imply they were either loose so were subjected to vibration
impact or they were over tightened and subjected to stretching
fractures. I suspect the second due to cussing about even using thread
seal on them....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

They come in a packing coating to prevent corrosion, the same as new
rotors and bearings. You are supposed to wash off this coating with a
solvent....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

DaveW wrote:
>
> Funny thing is that in the past, when I have had to install replacement
> studs on cars, the replacements came new with some sort of lube on them.
> You could feel it! IIRC those were TRW parts, purchased new from a very
> well regarded local part store/engine rebuilding shop.
>
> So, I'd say a very small, well distributed touch of grease should not be
> a bad thing.
>
> Regards,
>
> DAve

Now I remember back when ordinary folks didn't have torque wrenches, air
compressors and impact wrenches at home. And some service stations
didn't either. With lug nuts, you used a "star" wrench and the important
thing was that the lug nuts all be tightened about equally. Put yer back
into it a little bit on that final turn. And the common knowledge at that
time was that lug nuts (and studs) should be clean and dry, no lube. It
was also common knowledge back then that a person should check their lug
nuts occasionally.

So I wonder if it's all that important to have the exact (or correct, per
factory) torque on lug nuts? They need to be equal, so as to not cause
warping, and they need to be tight enough to hold the wheel secure and not
allow it to come off. What more does a guy need?

Now-a-days many more people are using alloy wheels, which are probably more
elastic (correct term?) than ordinary stamped steel wheels and so need a
more precise tightening than the steel wheels. But just how much more
precise does it need to be?

Where I worked, we serviced our own trucks. The tire shop had one of
those big old manly-man impact wrenches for putting the wheels back on the
trucks. They used the same wrench for alloy and steel wheels. Never did
see a torque wrench laying about. Never heard of a wheel coming off.
Never heard of a warped rotor or drum.

I recently got a set of tires at Costco. The tire shop was very neat and
spotless. The policy at the shop was that the final tightening was by a
more senior employee with a torque wrench. Seems like a prudent thing for
a (deep pockets) company to do.

Now, personally, I have an air compressor and a 1/2" impact wrench at home
and my compressor is usually at about 95#. ( I know that doesn't translate
to torque lbs.) When I rotate my tires I usually just go around my pattern
3 or 4 times once all the slack has been taken up. Seems to work ok.
I've never lubed the lug nuts. That said, the first time I rotated the
alloy wheels on my new Chevy truck I thought I was going to have to go to
the dealer to get the nuts broke loose. Dang, were they ever tight!
Must have used one of those big old manly-man impact wrenches to put them on
at the factory! Seemed like over-kill.

None of the above is intended to flame or put down anyone using more precise
techniques. I admire precision. It's just that some times common sense
can be just as effective and a whole lot less trouble.

Ralph