Serious Bentley Manual Problems

Tony Bad wrote:
> "Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kent wrote:
>>> I disagree. The CD case clearly says that the CD will run on Windows
>>> 95/98/NT and Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer 4 or higher.
>>
>> Which was true when Bentley was selling that version.
>>
>>> Bentley
>>> may consider this an obsolete "out of circulation" version, but they are
>>> still out there in the supply chain
>>
>> Bentley is not putting them into the supply chain.
>>
>>> being sold to unwitting consumers (like
>>> me) as new. There is nothing on the packaging to indicate that the CD is
>>> out-of-date.
>>
>> It was not out of date when it was packaged. It was sold to you by a
>> third party who should have told you it was out of date. How do you
>> expect
>> Bentley to fix the situation on product they no longer own. Get a life
>> and
>> blame the right people. Take it up with the people who sold you the out
>> of
>> date product.
>>
>>> In fact, I had to give Bentley software support a number off
>>> the CD itself before they could tell me that I had the obsolete version.
>>> Why
>>> should my distributor be held responsible when the case represents that
>>> it
>>> will run on systems that Bentley now concedes that it won't?
>>
>> How could Bentley know Microsoft was going to make changes that would
>> keep it from running. Chill out man.
>>
>>> Bentley is
>>> ultimately responsible for providing updates, equitable exchanges, or
>>> full
>>> refunds if their product does not function as advertised.
>>
>> Since when?
>>
>>> This is especially
>>> true when you consider the outrageous pricing for the CD version.
>>> Instead
>>> they are beating around the bush, offering non-equitable exchanges, and
>>> hoping it will all go away. I won't go away.
>>
>> So want are you going to do. Get a life.
>>
>
> I think your comments are unreasonable. Lets say you and many others have
> an HP printer and the drivers no longer work after a microsoft update. HP
> could help their good customers by making a downloadable update available,
> or they could let you just twist in the wind and say even though the
> product you bought says HP on it, it isn't their problem. So what does HP
> and virtually every other computer related company do? They find a way to
> help, not screw, their customers by providing some type of update. That is
> pretty standard practice.

I have never had a software program that failed on newer systems
upgraded so it would work. Certainly many many programs do not work on XP
that worked prior. How many of them (over a couple of years old) were
supported by their creators?

>
> ...And...as Kent points out, the case says what systems it will work on,
> leaving the retailer in the dark. The retailers read the package, and it
> says it should work, so how have they done anything wrong? If autozone
> sells me a fram filter that says it fits on my VW, and it doesn't, who is
> wrong, the retailer or the person who packaged the item incorrectly?
> Autozone is a big outfit who will eat the problem even if it isn't their
> fault. Many of the internet retailers are lower volume operators and can't
> be as generous. There are also issues about returning opened software.

How about oil??? A many retailers still have oil on hand that may be a
year or two old. That oil may not meet the specifications of today's cars.
It may say OK for VW spec 5546, but who knows what that is and who knows
that the 2004 model requires spec 5587? Yea you can go to an Autozone and
buy an oil that may have only one letter different on the label and it may
not meet the specs of you new car.

>
> I don't get the "chill out" and "get a life" comments. The complaint seems
> reasonable to me. Are your comments aimed at the man or the issue?

You are welcome to your opinion, I however believe the retailer does
have an obligation to their customer. I don't believe Bentley is
responsible for the changes Microsoft made. It would be nice if they did
offer a better solution but they may not even have a current version of that
CD. That CD was issued over 10 years ago!!

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

starburst wrote:
> Joseph Meehan wrote:
>
>> The more I think about this the more it sounds like you bought this
>> from a bootlegger and you knew full well that it was an iffy product and
>> bought it anyway. Now you found it you were ripped off by the seller and
>> you are mad but you know full well the seller is just going to laugh in
>> your face now that he has your moeny.
>>
>
> I'm also surprised at your attitude on this one. If Bentley knows that
> the product is pirated, that's one thing. But if not, and they know that
> there's an update issue and they've fixed it, why don't they just send
> him a new CD? He's paid for the copyright on the material. It'll cost
> Bentley all of about a 50 cents and postage. The bad rep doesn't seem
> worth the hassle.

I think it would be nice. However I have also seen many many old CD's in
pretty looking packages at shows and other places that look ALMOST original.
They are almost always for sale at prices far below the going rate and often
not well marked. Some are new original CD, but are just old. They are
almost always old versions of popular products. Some I would guess are new
stock that did not sell, some used, but being re-sold and some pirated. In
any case It it fair to expect Bentley to maybe replace the original for
maybe two or three different owners?

Sorry. I just don't agree with you. I think the first place Kent
should have went should have been to the retailer. As far as I have read,
he has made no effort at all to receive an adjustment from the retailer.
That should have been his first stop after finding that it was an out of
date disk.

What would you do if you got a bottle of milk home from the grocery and
found it was dated last week and was sour? Demand the bottler replace it or
return it to the grocery?

>
> -Chris

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
...
> Tony Bad wrote:
>
> I have never had a software program that failed on newer systems
> upgraded so it would work. Certainly many many programs do not work on XP
> that worked prior. How many of them (over a couple of years old) were
> supported by their creators?
>

I see what you are saying, but the way Bentley packages these products is that
the disc contains a reader and data, which is different from most types of
software. As best I can determine, it is the reader that has the conflicts with
newer OS. They should make updated reades, capable of accessing older info. I
have paper manuals I owned since the 70's. It seems wrong that they make a
product that cannot be accessed in just a few years. Even the latest vesrions of
Adobe Acrobat can open the oldest of pdf files. A lack of such compliance seems
the work of amateurs, who have no business selling software.

> >
> > ...And...as Kent points out, the case says what systems it will work on,
> > leaving the retailer in the dark. The retailers read the package, and it
> > says it should work, so how have they done anything wrong? If autozone
> > sells me a fram filter that says it fits on my VW, and it doesn't, who is
> > wrong, the retailer or the person who packaged the item incorrectly?
> > Autozone is a big outfit who will eat the problem even if it isn't their
> > fault. Many of the internet retailers are lower volume operators and can't
> > be as generous. There are also issues about returning opened software.
>
> How about oil??? A many retailers still have oil on hand that may be a
> year or two old. That oil may not meet the specifications of today's cars.
> It may say OK for VW spec 5546, but who knows what that is and who knows
> that the 2004 model requires spec 5587? Yea you can go to an Autozone and
> buy an oil that may have only one letter different on the label and it may
> not meet the specs of you new car.
>

Again, I understand your point, but the situation you describe is different. The
packaging on these discs specifically says it works with various versions of
windows. It doesn't say "current versions of these OS as of the date of
publishing", which is probably what they meant. Oil packaging usually has "meets
model specs for 2004 gas engines" or words to that effect. Perhaps a minor
difference, but a difference none the less.

--
Tony Bad

02 Jetta Wagon
01 Eurovan MV
91 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
86 Jetta
79 Rabbit 1.5 Diesel (semi-retired for now)
Schwinn Continental 10 Speed
Radio Flyer Pedal Car (my daughter made me add this)

I have $1,000 HP Scanjet IIcx that won't work with 2k or XP. Wah. I
guess I should try an Adaptec card before I whine. ;-)

"Tony Bad" > wrote:

>
>"Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
...
>> Kent wrote:
>> > I disagree. The CD case clearly says that the CD will run on Windows
>> > 95/98/NT and Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer 4 or higher.
>>
>> Which was true when Bentley was selling that version.
>>
>> > Bentley
>> > may consider this an obsolete "out of circulation" version, but they are
>> > still out there in the supply chain
>>
>> Bentley is not putting them into the supply chain.
>>
>> > being sold to unwitting consumers (like
>> > me) as new. There is nothing on the packaging to indicate that the CD is
>> > out-of-date.
>>
>> It was not out of date when it was packaged. It was sold to you by a
>> third party who should have told you it was out of date. How do you expect
>> Bentley to fix the situation on product they no longer own. Get a life and
>> blame the right people. Take it up with the people who sold you the out of
>> date product.
>>
>> > In fact, I had to give Bentley software support a number off
>> > the CD itself before they could tell me that I had the obsolete version.
>> > Why
>> > should my distributor be held responsible when the case represents that it
>> > will run on systems that Bentley now concedes that it won't?
>>
>> How could Bentley know Microsoft was going to make changes that would
>> keep it from running. Chill out man.
>>
>> > Bentley is
>> > ultimately responsible for providing updates, equitable exchanges, or full
>> > refunds if their product does not function as advertised.
>>
>> Since when?
>>
>> > This is especially
>> > true when you consider the outrageous pricing for the CD version. Instead
>> > they are beating around the bush, offering non-equitable exchanges, and
>> > hoping it will all go away. I won't go away.
>>
>> So want are you going to do. Get a life.
>>
>
>I think your comments are unreasonable. Lets say you and many others have an HP
>printer and the drivers no longer work after a microsoft update. HP could help
>their good customers by making a downloadable update available, or they could
>let you just twist in the wind and say even though the product you bought says
>HP on it, it isn't their problem. So what does HP and virtually every other
>computer related company do? They find a way to help, not screw, their customers
>by providing some type of update. That is pretty standard practice.
>
>...And...as Kent points out, the case says what systems it will work on, leaving
>the retailer in the dark. The retailers read the package, and it says it should
>work, so how have they done anything wrong? If autozone sells me a fram filter
>that says it fits on my VW, and it doesn't, who is wrong, the retailer or the
>person who packaged the item incorrectly? Autozone is a big outfit who will eat
>the problem even if it isn't their fault. Many of the internet retailers are
>lower volume operators and can't be as generous. There are also issues about
>returning opened software.
>
>I don't get the "chill out" and "get a life" comments. The complaint seems
>reasonable to me. Are your comments aimed at the man or the issue?


Jim B.

Joseph Meehan wrote:


>I think the first place Kent
> should have went should have been to the retailer. As far as I have read,
> he has made no effort at all to receive an adjustment from the retailer.
> That should have been his first stop after finding that it was an out of
> date disk.

Agreed. I'm also surprised that he hasn't gone there - it would have
been my first stop, too.

>
> What would you do if you got a bottle of milk home from the grocery and
> found it was dated last week and was sour? Demand the bottler replace it or
> return it to the grocery?

Why, I'd go and punch the cow, of course.

-Chris

> wrote in message
...
> I have $1,000 HP Scanjet IIcx that won't work with 2k or XP. Wah. I
> guess I should try an Adaptec card before I whine. ;-)
>

Maybe, but I'd.check here first...

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/s...lc =en&os=228

Tony

"Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
...
> The more I think about this the more it sounds like you bought this
> from a bootlegger and you knew full well that it was an iffy product and
> bought it anyway. Now you found it you were ripped off by the seller and
> you are mad but you know full well the seller is just going to laugh in
> your face now that he has your moeny.

Kent clearly stated that was not the case. Are you just trolling?

In the earlier thread (which I originated), Kent said he ordered it from
www.germanautoparts.com - hardly a bootlegger. In that same post, for what
it's worth, he also explicitly argued against purchasing pirated software.

I'd like to mention that I initially ordered the CD version of the manual
myself, also from germanautoparts.com. I then got cold feet after thinking
about it a bit more (for exactly the sort of reasons that launched this
present thread), and I emailed them back asking if I could switch to the
print version. They had not shipped the CD yet, so they substituted the
print version, no problem. Excellent customer support.

I'm finding the print manual extremely helpful, and thus far quite accurate,
on my '95 Cabrio.

Kent wrote:
<snip>
> Well, after a single unsuccessful fix attempt by software support, I was
> told that the only possible way that the Version 1 CD "might" run on my
> computer was by installing and maintaining a "dummy" version of an obsolete
> Netscape browser.



Folks, we are talking IE and Netscape as if they are interchangeable.

I would want to know exactly what is installed with the old version of
Netscape that the old version of CD relies on to be there.

It might be as simple as installing just that component or file and
foregoing the rest of the drama.

Bad programming on the CD guys fault, but the best solution would be for
Bentley to produce a patch for owners of new OSs and old CDs.


TBerk

Tony Bad wrote:
> "Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Tony Bad wrote:
>>
>> I have never had a software program that failed on newer systems
>> upgraded so it would work. Certainly many many programs do not work on
>> XP
>> that worked prior. How many of them (over a couple of years old) were
>> supported by their creators?
>>
>
> I see what you are saying, but the way Bentley packages these products is
> that the disc contains a reader and data, which is different from most
> types of software. As best I can determine, it is the reader that has the
> conflicts with newer OS. They should make updated reades, capable of
> accessing older info. I have paper manuals I owned since the 70's. It
> seems
> wrong that they make a product that cannot be accessed in just a few
> years.
> Even the latest vesrions of Adobe Acrobat can open the oldest of pdf
> files.
> A lack of such compliance seems the work of amateurs, who have no business
> selling software.

It would be nice. I had a whole box of software I dumped over the last
couple of years from a number of manufacturers.

BTW the programs are still readable. You just need to keep your old
computer, operating system etc on hand. I have one machine I keep just for
that use. However it is not old enough for some of my older software.

I have to admit that I also believe they 'should' provide a update path
if at all possible. However this was a 10+ year old package and I guess you
need to draw the line somewhere.

>
>>>
>>> ...And...as Kent points out, the case says what systems it will work on,
>>> leaving the retailer in the dark. The retailers read the package, and it
>>> says it should work, so how have they done anything wrong? If autozone
>>> sells me a fram filter that says it fits on my VW, and it doesn't, who
>>> is
>>> wrong, the retailer or the person who packaged the item incorrectly?
>>> Autozone is a big outfit who will eat the problem even if it isn't their
>>> fault. Many of the internet retailers are lower volume operators and
>>> can't
>>> be as generous. There are also issues about returning opened software.
>>
>> How about oil??? A many retailers still have oil on hand that may be
>> a
>> year or two old. That oil may not meet the specifications of today's
>> cars.
>> It may say OK for VW spec 5546, but who knows what that is and who knows
>> that the 2004 model requires spec 5587? Yea you can go to an Autozone
>> and
>> buy an oil that may have only one letter different on the label and it
>> may
>> not meet the specs of you new car.
>>
>
> Again, I understand your point, but the situation you describe is
> different. The packaging on these discs specifically says it works with
> various versions of windows. It doesn't say "current versions of these OS
> as of the date of publishing", which is probably what they meant. Oil
> packaging usually has "meets model specs for 2004 gas engines" or words to
> that effect. Perhaps a minor difference, but a difference none the less.

While I agree that they did not word that well. They should have known
and any reader of those words should have known that they had no way of
knowing what the future might bring. In reality I believe the argument
could be made, and would likely be made by an lawyer if it went to court,
that those words must have meant the versions listed and any newer available
at the time the words were written since no one would know about future
versions. Of course the argument could well be made that a a reasonable
person might have thought otherwise.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

wrote:
> I have $1,000 HP Scanjet IIcx that won't work with 2k or XP. Wah. I
> guess I should try an Adaptec card before I whine. ;-)
>

Yea, I lost a scanner on one upgrade a few years ago. My new one is a
lot better however. :-)

>
> Jim B.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math