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"over-run" brakes?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 17th 05, 05:08 AM
Michael White
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Default "over-run" brakes?

While perusing a Land Rover web page, I noticed that the towing capacity of
a Defender 90 is similar to that of a Jeep's except when using a trailer
with "over-run" brakes, in which case the towing capacity is about 7,700
lbs (3,500 kgs).

I did a search on "over-run" brakes, and it seems there's a sensor in the
trailer hitch or ball that controls the brakes on the trailer. Would this
also work for a Jeep? Is anyone familiar with "over-run" brakes? It seems
they're more popular in Europe than in the US.

Thanks.
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer
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  #2  
Old April 17th 05, 05:20 AM
Joseph Myers
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Default

Prolly a surge brake.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:08:58 GMT, Michael White
> wrote:

>While perusing a Land Rover web page, I noticed that the towing capacity of
>a Defender 90 is similar to that of a Jeep's except when using a trailer
>with "over-run" brakes, in which case the towing capacity is about 7,700
>lbs (3,500 kgs).
>
>I did a search on "over-run" brakes, and it seems there's a sensor in the
>trailer hitch or ball that controls the brakes on the trailer. Would this
>also work for a Jeep? Is anyone familiar with "over-run" brakes? It seems
>they're more popular in Europe than in the US.
>
>Thanks.


  #3  
Old April 17th 05, 05:31 AM
John Davies
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Default

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:08:58 GMT, Michael White
> wrote:

>While perusing a Land Rover web page, I noticed that the towing capacity of
>a Defender 90 is similar to that of a Jeep's except when using a trailer
>with "over-run" brakes, in which case the towing capacity is about 7,700
>lbs (3,500 kgs).
>
>I did a search on "over-run" brakes, and it seems there's a sensor in the
>trailer hitch or ball that controls the brakes on the trailer. Would this
>also work for a Jeep? Is anyone familiar with "over-run" brakes? It seems
>they're more popular in Europe than in the US.
>
>Thanks.


Surge brakes (same as over-run brakes) are found in the USA mainly on
commercial, rental and marine trailers. Electric brakes are most
common on light utility and travel trailers.

http://www.championtrailers.com/brkart.html Trailer brakes tech
article

Look in any marina parking lot and all you will see are surge brakes.
With stainless disc brake rotors they can be a waaay cool braking
system, but lots more expensive than plain vanilla Dexter electric
brakes.

For your Jeep trailer you want electric brakes, unless you plan on
submerging the trailer often. You can control the trailer's behavior
much more precisely and easily with an electric controller than you
can with a surge brake actuator. For example, you can dial back the
braking current on gravel roads or wet pavement to prevent premature
lockup, and you can manually apply just the trailer brakes if you need
to. Neither of these is possible with surge brkaes.

John
  #4  
Old April 17th 05, 06:39 AM
Nathan W. Collier
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Default

"John Davies" > wrote in message
...
> but lots more expensive than plain vanilla Dexter electric
> brakes.


just yesterday i ordered a 7x18 haulmark kodiak
http://www.haulmark.com/php/products...model_id=70117
enclosed trailer. electric brakes are included in the base price of the
trailer, the hydraulic surge brakes are an addition $900+ ($600 on the 7000
gvwr trailer, but i got the 10000). as you can see in my invoice
http://img185.echo.cx/img185/3082/trailer7rj.jpg it was worth the $900 to me
to have the convenience of the surge brakes.


> You can control the trailer's behavior
> much more precisely and easily with an electric controller than you
> can with a surge brake actuator.


i disagree completely with this statement. electric brake controllers
require adjustment any time your load or the terrain) changes. yes you can
get "close" with numbered settings but youll rarely set it "perfect" even if
it "feels right". to much adjustment (even just enough that you dont even
notice it) and you wear the trailer brakes prematurely. not enough and you
wear the vehicle brakes prematurely. coming down bozeman pass at 90mph
pulling 10000 pounds will require a lot more braking than slowing for
traffic as you climb it. adjusting on the fly like that sucks and can
rarely be done with precision the first try.


> For example, you can dial back the
> braking current on gravel roads or wet pavement to prevent premature
> lockup, and you can manually apply just the trailer brakes if you need
> to. Neither of these is possible with surge brkaes.


what are you talking about? "dialing" it isnt necessary at all on surge
brakes because you only get exactly what you need anyway. premature lock up
isnt a concern with surge brakes because the vehicle will provide less
braking pressure anyway as it will also have less traction on gravel roads
or wet pavement. this is the beauty of surge brakes, and this is why rental
trailers are equipped with them....theyre idiot proof and require no
thinking or adjustment. i could have made electric brakes work just fine
but i also wanted a trailer that my wife could just hook up to and run,
without have to try to teach her how to get close with an electric
adjustment. besides, with the nature of my work the load would change many
times throughout the day and the self adjustment of the surge was the way to
go.

that said, the expense involved makes surge brakes impractical for most and
anything that can be pulled by a swb jeep would probably do just fine with
electrics.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com


  #5  
Old April 17th 05, 06:50 AM
Nathan W. Collier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Michael White" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I did a search on "over-run" brakes, and it seems there's a sensor in the
> trailer hitch or ball that controls the brakes on the trailer.


with surge brakes the tongue of the trailer itself is actually a hydraulic
brake pedal. as the vehicle brakes, the trailer moves into the vehicle with
more force, pushing the tongue in harder, thus pressing its own brake pedal.
as the trailer brakes slow the trailer, the pressure against the tow vehicle
is less so it releases the brake pedal completely synchronous with how hard
the vehicle is braking.

"The "surge" or "push" of the trailer toward the automobile automatically
synchronizes the trailer brakes with the automobile brake. As the trailer
pushes against the car, the actuator telescopes together and applies the
force to the master cylinder, supplying hydraulic pressure to the brakes."

most decent surge actuators have a bypass so you can back the trailer up
hill without actuating the brakes.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com


  #6  
Old April 17th 05, 08:04 AM
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
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Posts: n/a
Default

Vehicle tow ratings:
http://www.gonecamping.net/stories/tow_ratings.html
Kalifornia trailers with a gross weight of 1500 pounds must have
brakes: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt12.htm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Michael White wrote:
>
> While perusing a Land Rover web page, I noticed that the towing capacity of
> a Defender 90 is similar to that of a Jeep's except when using a trailer
> with "over-run" brakes, in which case the towing capacity is about 7,700
> lbs (3,500 kgs).
>
> I did a search on "over-run" brakes, and it seems there's a sensor in the
> trailer hitch or ball that controls the brakes on the trailer. Would this
> also work for a Jeep? Is anyone familiar with "over-run" brakes? It seems
> they're more popular in Europe than in the US.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
> fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer

  #7  
Old April 17th 05, 05:27 PM
John Davies
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 23:39:18 -0600, "Nathan W. Collier"
> wrote:

>"John Davies" > wrote in message
.. .


>> You can control the trailer's behavior
>> much more precisely and easily with an electric controller than you
>> can with a surge brake actuator.

>
>i disagree completely with this statement. electric brake controllers
>require adjustment any time your load or the terrain) changes. yes you can
>get "close" with numbered settings but youll rarely set it "perfect" even if
>it "feels right". to much adjustment (even just enough that you dont even
>notice it) and you wear the trailer brakes prematurely. not enough and you
>wear the vehicle brakes prematurely. coming down bozeman pass at 90mph
>pulling 10000 pounds will require a lot more braking than slowing for
>traffic as you climb it. adjusting on the fly like that sucks and can
>rarely be done with precision the first try.


For most electric controllers, I agree 100% - they are a PITA to
adjust and even worse to use on the highway. Most controllers are a
band aid fix and IMHO totally unsatisfactory for a serious tow rig.
This one isn't junk - it's a great piece of equipment:

http://www.jordanbrake.com/

Once you learn the necessary amperage for different conditions, it's
dead simple to increase or decrease the current depending on the road
surface or weather conditions.The unit shows amperage to 0.1 amp on an
easily readable screen.

It actuates in a completely linear, predictable fashion since it is
connected directly to the brake pedal arm and doesn't rely on an
electronic timer or flakey bobbing pendulum. So a little foot pressure
gets a little bit of trailer braking and a big stab gets lots of
trailer braking. Its very transparent to the user.
>
>> For example, you can dial back the
>> braking current on gravel roads or wet pavement to prevent premature
>> lockup, and you can manually apply just the trailer brakes if you need
>> to. Neither of these is possible with surge brkaes.

>
>what are you talking about? "dialing" it isnt necessary at all on surge
>brakes because you only get exactly what you need anyway. premature lock up
>isnt a concern with surge brakes because the vehicle will provide less
>braking pressure anyway as it will also have less traction on gravel roads
>or wet pavement. this is the beauty of surge brakes, and this is why rental
>trailers are equipped with them....theyre idiot proof and require no
>thinking or adjustment. i could have made electric brakes work just fine
>but i also wanted a trailer that my wife could just hook up to and run,
>without have to try to teach her how to get close with an electric
>adjustment. besides, with the nature of my work the load would change many
>times throughout the day and the self adjustment of the surge was the way to
>go.


When travelling down a steep, undulating gravel road, many trailer
brakes will lock when you hit a dip or depression, surge brakes
included - the trailer will shove forward on the actuator and apply
too much pressure. This behavior even occurs on paved roads - it was
most irritating to me when pulling my SeaRay 270 Sundancer down a
perforated steel ramp onto a WA State ferry at low tide - the trailer
wheels would lock up and slide since the trailer was sloping down
steeply and actuating the surge brakes. Very scary when the surface
was wet!!! I got a lot of hard looks from ferry workers. The Jordan
would eliminate that problem completely.

With surge brakes there is NO way to tap the trailer brakes
independently to stop a sway situation from worsening. You are forced
to gradually slow down and hope the trailer will settle into position.
An electric controller lets you tap the manual button to drag the
trailer into line and settle it. A properly set-up sway control will
eliminate the problem, but how many heavy commercial or boat trailers
do you see with sway controls? Maybe 1 out of 1000? Mine had one....

Then we can start arguing about equalizing hitches, which are required
for many vehicles to safely handle a very heavy tongue weight. As soon
as you reef up on those spring bars you load the surge brake actuator
at 90 degrees to its travel and it no longer operates freely - you
have to learn to over-brake the truck to get the trailer brakes to
come on, then you have to accelerate hard briefly to get the brakes to
release. The surge brake manufacturers acknowledge this situation and
even advise against using an equalizing hitch. This is one reason
heavy travel trailers don't generally use surge brakes.

>that said, the expense involved makes surge brakes impractical for most and
>anything that can be pulled by a swb jeep would probably do just fine with
>electrics.


Yep, I agree completely.

I have towed surge brake equipped heavy (9000 pound+) trailers many
miles in mountain terrain. I have also towed lighter (7000 pound
minus) trailers with electric brakes. I would quickly choose surge
brakes over electric for really heavy highway-only towing. I would
upgrade to stainless disc brake rotors with a free-backing solenoid
for _any_ sized boat trailer that sees salt water.

For any non-marine trailer under 3 tons that will see rough roads I
would always choose electric brakes with a Jordan controller. For off
road towing there is no choice other than electric for total control
of the trailer in sticky situations. The first time you look in the
mirror and see the trailer trying to jack knife down that steep gravel
embankment you will be glad you can dial back the current and control
the trailer brakes with your thumb.

This has been argued for decades., and it's always fun to start it up
again. Here's my present 400 pound (3000 GVW) trailer with 10 inch
electric brakes:

http://home.comcast.net/~johnedavies...h_bikes-02.jpg

John Davies

  #8  
Old April 17th 05, 07:18 PM
Dave Milne
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Posts: n/a
Default

Jeep TJs towing capacity with over-run brakes, which as Nathan said is
simply a telescopic hitch which when compressed applies the brakes and which
disengages when you reverse , is 2000kg. Without it, it is 2000lb. I have
towed 1500kg with my twin axle braked 8' x 6' bed trailer and it is
perfectly stable. Wouldn't try much more though, and not that with a single
axle trailer or unbraked one..

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

"Michael White" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> While perusing a Land Rover web page, I noticed that the towing capacity

of
> a Defender 90 is similar to that of a Jeep's except when using a trailer
> with "over-run" brakes, in which case the towing capacity is about 7,700
> lbs (3,500 kgs).



  #9  
Old April 17th 05, 09:08 PM
Nathan W. Collier
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Dave Milne" > wrote in message
k...
> Jeep TJs towing capacity with over-run brakes, which as Nathan said is
> simply a telescopic hitch which when compressed applies the brakes and
> which
> disengages when you reverse , is 2000kg.


another factor to consider is tongue weight. to properly pull a 4000 pound
trailer you need 400 pounds of tongue weight to prevent swaying. 400 pounds
of tongue weight would make my tj pop a wheelie. :-)

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com


  #10  
Old April 18th 05, 01:14 AM
Nathan W. Collier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"John Davies" > wrote in message
...
> For most electric controllers, I agree 100% - they are a PITA to
> adjust and even worse to use on the highway. Most controllers are a
> band aid fix and IMHO totally unsatisfactory for a serious tow rig.
> This one isn't junk - it's a great piece of equipment:
>
> http://www.jordanbrake.com/


it looks like a good unit but unless im missing something i dont see how it
corrects the weaknesses i listed.


> Once you learn the necessary amperage for different conditions, it's
> dead simple to increase or decrease the current


bottom line, if you werent there to supervise/explain would you let your
wife tow an 8000 pound camper from billings to helena (using the jordon
brake controller) and trust that she will be able to make the proper
adjustments on the fly? i think this is the biggest reason i ordered surge,
so that my wife could pull it with confidence.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com


 




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