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New Tire Model on iRacing



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 18th 11, 09:02 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
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Posts: 17
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

> > Two questions; 1) What do you expect to change with the new tire
> > model? *2) What do you think of the delays in releasing the NW car
> > with the new tire model?


Guess I'll answer them myself...

#2 first - I'm kind of ticked about the delay. My subscription ran
out months ago. I renewed over the weekend based on the news that
they would release this week. I figured since they missed getting it
inot the build last week, they'd surely get it out by now. So yea, I
have no interest in running anything else, so renewing was a waste of
money.

#1 - What I expect is that a neutral setup should now be competitive.
Right now, to be competitive, you *have* to set the car up to turn off
the outside rear tire. The rear tire is carrying a ton of slip angle,
while the front tire is experiencing almost no significant lateral
force or slip angle. That is the only way to be competitive. I want
a setup that is neutral steering to be competitive, like in real life.
Ads
  #2  
Old May 19th 11, 02:26 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Andrew MacPherson[_2_]
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Posts: 287
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

(Pat Dotson) wrote:

> #2 first - I'm kind of ticked about the delay.


Well, tyre models are notoriously tricky, so I'm not too concerned about the delay.
However I am concerned that both iRacing and a significant chunk of the membership
seem to think this will be some kind of revolution. Hence this "2.0" claptrap,
which is setting themselves up for a fall IMO.

Personally I think iRacing are a very nice, well intentioned, and pretty talented
bunch of complete chancers, and are a little out of their depth as they struggle to
work out why the simming world isn't as hardcore as they hoped or want it to be.
And they are determined to tie themselves in knots trying to find a compromise
which suits everyone.

And suiting everyone is impossible, so they'd better get used to tempting us back
with discounts, because that's far more important than any new tyre model could be.

IMO anyway. But then I am notoriously divided on the whole iRacing project. Love
the cars and tracks, complete and utter sceptic on the whole marketed sport thing.

I rejoined on Saturday in time to watch their servers fall apart under the strain
of their pre-Indy test race. It was pretty impressive, if you like watching sites
grind to a halt. But then I did always say I was a member for the entertainment
rather than the racing, and I'm rarely disappointed.

Anyway, I think DK should announce that he's putting back the tyre model for at
least another season. Do it right rather than on time. They have to tweak each
vehicle it's added to rather than some overall "master model" onto which individual
car specs are overlaid, so I'll be impressed if they manage to get the Nationwide
debugged by the end of this season (they're bound to miss something), and the
announced Skip upgrade will probably get set back much further.

Then again they could both come out tomorrow and be totally and unexpectedly
brilliant. All I know for sure though is that the ImpB Fixed races are on hold, and
they were my favourite way of earning a quick & easy $7 participation bonus. So I
am sulking.

Of course sulking is my natural condition when subscribed, so some things never
change, :-)

Andrew McP
  #3  
Old May 19th 11, 07:56 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Penis Boy
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Posts: 24
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

andrew youre chatty like a ho baby
  #5  
Old May 20th 11, 02:41 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Penis Boy
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Posts: 24
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

On May 20, 6:23*am, (Andrew MacPherson)
wrote:
> (Penis Boy) wrote:
> > andrew youre chatty like a ho baby

>
> I'm struggling with your grammar, dear boy. Is it chatty like the baby of a ho? In
> which case this particular ho has clearly been reproducing with a pretty articulate
> set of genes and I'm flattered by the comparison.
>
> Unless, of course, the babies of hos are inclined to babble on account of crack
> addiction inherited from the mother via placental osmosis.
>
> Or is it "chatty like a ho, baby" wherein the implication is that I am
> conversationally loose to an extreme wherein a casual passer by might mistake me
> for someone of loose moral virtue with an inclination to stand on street corners
> letting the world know my business at great length.
>
> In which case I am less flattered, but probably banged to rights.
>
> Andrew McP


andy you sound like a fruity limey, would the Jocko be correct?
  #6  
Old May 24th 11, 09:08 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
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Posts: 17
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

On May 19, 9:26*am, (Andrew MacPherson)
wrote:
> Well, tyre models are notoriously tricky, so I'm not too concerned about the delay.


Tires are not so tricky to characterize that trickiness explains the
complete lack of fidelity in iRacing. It's been three years. The
problems were evident to me within days of joining beta, and I did not
shy away from pointing them out. IMO, there are other developers have
done a better job at characterizing the performance envelope of tires,
and they did it before iRacing ever went beta.


> And they are determined to tie themselves in knots trying to find a compromise
> which suits everyone.


Compromising is what the entire membership of iRacing have been doing
up to now. It's not about catering to the expectations of a
particular sect of sim-racers. It's about striving to achieve what
the marketing department at iRacing were promoting, which is a
simulator worthy of use as a training tool for real racers.

To be fair, iRacing has succeeded beyond my expectations in certain
aspects of the simulation. They have ruined me for any other
simulation with their tracks. I also have no complaints at all about
the overall race competition system. I'd say they have exceeded
expectation in that department as well. But where the rubber
literally (or, virtually) meets the road, the current iRacing
experience is disappointing.


> And suiting everyone is impossible, so they'd better get used to tempting us back
> with discounts, because that's far more important than any new tyre model could be.


For me, no amount if discounting is going to keep me around long-term
with the current simulation. I went cold-turkey for four months
without even a slight desire to re-join. The only thing that pulled
me back in were the promises of the imminent release of the new tire
model. So they got my money.... where is the new tire model? This
falls under the heading of "fool me once". I won't do it again.

So, at least for this charter subscriber, the new tire model is
*critical* to iRacing getting any more of my money. The quality of
the new tire model is critical to getting any more than about another
$12 out of me. If the NTM doesn't produce immediate results, I'm not
sitting around paying for another year or two waiting for it to
mature.


> Then again they could both come out tomorrow and be totally and unexpectedly
> brilliant.


They could. I hope that happens. The thing is, I don't think it
takes brilliance to make the cars respond in a somewhat reasonable
way. I'm mystified as to why we are three years in with no change to
the "sim-style" of driving you have to use to be competitive.


Directly to my question #1; what do I expect from the NTM?: Did you
see the post-race interviews from Charlotte this past weekend?
Specifically, Kyle Bush's comments after getting passed by Carl
Edwards near the end of the race? Bush commented on how his car was
getting loose enough that when he would get on the gas he had to "turn
into" the turn. The speed he was losing by doing that allowed Edwards
to pass him with a tighter car.

Isn't this exactly how the iRacing cars have to be driven? You either
setup up the car so that you "turn into it" when getting on the gas
and be competitive, or you set the car up to be neutral and be a mid-
packer.

The answer is simple. No brilliance required. When a car gets loose,
the tires create enough drag in the form of rolling resistance that
the car is slower than if it were neutral. So the answer is to adjust
the tire model parameters to increase drag at higher slip angles.
That's all it takes to allow a neutral setup to be competitive with a
loose setup. I fail to believe that the current tire model is not
comprehensive enough to allow for that sort of adjustment.

So the question is, why hasn't that adjustment been made to the
current tire model? The poeple at iRacing are smart enough to
understand this. I'm really starting to think that there is an
ingrained resistance to the idea of driving cars in a simulator the
way they are driven in real life. It seems as though many sim racers
think that driving a loose car is more fun, and feels faster.

Is iRacing catering to that belief to the detriment of the fidelity of
the driving experience? What if the new tire model requires a
controlled driving style to be competitve, such that the old drifting
style of sim-driving is relegated to mid-pack? How would that affect
iRacing's subscription numbers?
  #7  
Old June 9th 11, 12:08 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Uwe
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Posts: 66
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

<- snip snip ->

Thanks for that insightful post, Pat. I haven't missed iracing a day
since my subscription ran out (six months after first public
"offering"), and I didn't even notice the shortcomings of the NTM as I
hardly ran in any oval races.

Add to that the fact that most, if not all professional racing teams
base their simulators on a competing product and you have a pretty
compelling reason to believe that something is inherently flawed with
iR's TM, ATM ;-).

Cheers, Uwe

  #8  
Old June 9th 11, 07:31 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Penis Boy
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Posts: 24
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

this pat fruit is one long winded *******

  #9  
Old June 23rd 11, 07:25 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

Penis Boy:
> this pat fruit is one long winded *******


Easy, Penis.
The new tyre model is a joke. They pursuit in the wrong direction.
They will get somewhere like that, ok, but NOT where the simracers want it,
into a REALISTIC driving.
I researched FFB a lot, and right now I am near the end of that
research (with the old tyre model). There are a lot of problems with FFB.
First, the USB line is all dirty and messy, you got to clean it up. Second,
there is latency problem (you adjust that with the "cockpitLookDeadZone" in
the app.ini file). Then it has to have the PERFECT perspective to work right
(of course, different perspective gives different proportions). You adjust
that with the FOV (unfortunatelly iRacing cannot adjsut finer than the whole
degree), and with the "DrivingVanishY" (VERY important) in the app.ini file.
It is hard to expect from the sim community to spend hours to adjust
all this. I am comfident, though, that tools can be developed to help them
with that, and even that FFB program within itself can be adjusted to
accomodate different FOVs (simply, too wide FOV is lateraly compressed, and
longitudionaly stretched, and with too narrow FOV is the opposite, so you
simply adjust FFB parameters to those situations).
Well because of that, iRacing tried to simplify thinghs by just
using the NON-FFB effect of Centering Spring. But this CANNOT be done
realistically. This is why I use the old tyre model (which actually is "THE
REAL" tyre model, all that iRacing added is actually pretty fake, and
reminds me on the simracing before GPL, actually), with "Allow game to
adjust settings" unchecked. So they tried to adjust *their* FFB to that,
i.e. soften those unrealistical effects, to make them more forgiving (this
is what checking the "Allow..." brings to the old tyre model, softening some
effects which were troublesome with thair approach). This new "tyre model"
is just a new step in that, WRONG direction. Now FFB works well with all the
FFB effects on (Damper and Spring), but ONLY with "Allow..." checked. With
"Allow..." unchecked it shows its real character, though. All in all, the
driving experience is much poorer and simplified, compared to the old tyre
model, which deffinitelly is the step in the wrong direction. This way they
(iRacing) can CONTROL the behaviour of the cars on the computers without the
perfect perspective and with other above-mentioned problems, better, and
possibly even please some funs of racing, compiting on a computer, but in
its nature is nothing more than finely tuned ARCADE way of GAMING, this has
nothing to do with the real simulation.
And what direction iRacing is going on? Well, John Henry is a sport
impresario, he wanted to start the new sport, in which he will be the boss.
Well, smart idea, the only thing is that iRacing is going the wrong
direction. They should try to OVERCOME difficulties on their way (i.e.,
develop tools to help simracers adjsut PROPER perspective, and other
hardware), and not to do shortcuts, which puts them along with other arcade
style of competition, and we have plenty of that, now. This ISN'T
*simracing*.

Mario

  #10  
Old August 1st 11, 09:40 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
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Posts: 17
Default New Tire Model on iRacing

On Jun 9, 2:31*pm, Penis Boy > wrote:
> this pat fruit is one long winded *******


You had me at "Hello".
 




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