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Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?



 
 
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  #121  
Old February 20th 18, 07:42 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
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Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

Harry Bloomfield > wrote:

>> And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
>> torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?

>
> I can imagine, when building them that they simply check the
> calibration on a pass / fail basis. The only way I can think to adjust
> them is via shims under the spring, to increase the tension.


From what I saw on YouTube, there's an SAE standard for calibration of
torque wrenches, which, as I remember from the video of a day or two ago,
comprises three sets of five tests, summarized (from memory) as:

1. Unmeasured five full-torque applications (e.g., 150 foot pounds)
2. Measured, five 20% torque applications (e.g., 30 foot pounds)
3. Measured, five 60% applications (e.g., 90 foot pounds)

Average it all out and you get your percentage error.

If the error is worse than what you desire, you adjust the calibration of
the torque wrench (where some have hex adjustments of spring tension,
others have twist adjustments, others have bend adjustments, etc.).
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  #122  
Old February 20th 18, 07:57 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
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Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

ultred ragnusen > wrote:

> 1. Unmeasured five full-torque applications (e.g., 150 foot pounds)
> 2. Measured, five 20% torque applications (e.g., 30 foot pounds)
> 3. Measured, five 60% applications (e.g., 90 foot pounds)
>
> Average it all out and you get your percentage error.


The nice thing about standards is that their are so many of them.

Most of the world appears to use the ISO 6789 standard.
http://www.nla.org.za/conferences/pr...esentation.pdf

This paper lists ISO6789, JJG 707, ANSI/ASME B107/14 & GGG 686D standards.
http://www.norbar.com/portals/0/ntts...ov08%20nab.pdf

While the paper above says all the standards are similar, it mentions that
ISO 6789 has the largest use. ANSI/ASME B107/14 is popular in the USA.
GGG686 is an American military standard which is being overtaken by
B107/14. And JJG 707 standard is used in China.

A key step is that the calibration device has to be within plus or minus 1
percent, which is really the difficulty for home calibrations, I think.

It's interesting to note that the calibration has to be done such that the
weight of the wrench is negated, which means you can't have the wrench set
horizontally and then push down on it, as gravity affects your
measurements.

Also it's interesting you always calibrate "up", in that you test the
smaller torques before the larger torques.

I've never calibrated my torque wrenches, where I have a few 1/2-inch drive
ones (beam and click), 3/8-inch drive (click) and 1/4-inch drive (click)
where all the click types are from Harbor Freight, so I'm unsure of
accuracy.

The problem is to find a calibration standard that is easier to use than a
bucket of water or dumbbells.


  #123  
Old February 20th 18, 08:17 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
alan_m
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Posts: 32
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

On 20/02/2018 18:57, ultred ragnusen wrote:

> I've never calibrated my torque wrenches, where I have a few 1/2-inch drive
> ones (beam and click), 3/8-inch drive (click) and 1/4-inch drive (click)
> where all the click types are from Harbor Freight, so I'm unsure of
> accuracy.


I doubt if the manufactures calibrated them. The aim would be to get it
right by manufacture to what ever tolerance level is acceptable and then
perhaps test each one at a single setting (without performing any
adjustments) and perhaps test one in a thousand at different settings to
make sure that the manufacturing process is still correct.

Proper calibration costs money and unlikely to be performed on anything
other than something used for mass production where expensive
calibration costs are amortised over tens or hundred of thousands of
production items or individual use where safety is paramount.

Something you can buy at the local hardware store for less than £100 or
$100 is unlikely to have been individually calibrated or finely
adjusted. It is more likely to have had a go/no test after production.


--
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  #124  
Old February 20th 18, 08:41 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
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Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

alan_m > wrote:

>> Luckily it's easy to dismount, remount, and statically balance (and
>> dynamically test) a tire yourself,

>
> You are joking! I've seen on many occasions how much effort goes into
> removing/replacing a tyre from/on the rim using the specialised tyre
> fitting equipment.


I think you need to rethink your underlying belief system, because what you
fear is not at all what you should be fearing (IMHO).
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+tire+changer+

Hear me out, as I'm not chastising you for having a wholly misguided
incorrect fundamental belief system, but do recognize I'm not at all joking
that it takes about the same amount of time to change a tire at home (e.g.,
to fix a flat or to mount and balance new tires) as it takes for you to
take it to the shop.

But time isn't why you do any work at home anyway, as time (or money) isn't
the reason you do work at home - you do it at home because you enjoy it,
or, because you want it done right.

Speaking only of time though, I admit the first time you mount and balance
a tire at home, it takes forever though, particularly because you have to
learn the hard way how critically important a "drop center" is, to the tire
mounting process.

Once you figure out that the bead doesn't "stretch", you'll remember your
lesson about that critically important "drop center" offset from center in
the wheel rim.

After you figure out the concept of a drop center, you also have to learn
the hard way, on the first and second tires, that the Harbor Freight tools
have some limitations, which you work around.
1. You're crazy if you don't buy the separate bead breaker
2. The mounter's bead-breaker attachment bends on SUV tires
3. You need a wooden board to extend the range of the bead breaker for SUVs
4. A 6-inch vise grip is critical to prevent mounting bar slippage
5. Liquid dish detergent (blue or green) is your friend.
6. Don't believe the claims you need a special valve stem removal tool
7. Did I mention that you're doomed until you recognize the drop center?

> There is also the 15/30 minutes for blowing up a
> completely flat tyre with one of those little 12V compressors that fit
> into the cigarette lighter socket.


The only tools you need to change tires efficiently at home, in about the
same amount of time it takes the shop to do it, are these:
A. A decent compressor & fittings (which you already have most likely)
B. A shrader-valve removal screwdriver
C. A six-inch vise grip, one 2 or 3 foot tire iron, & dish detergent
D. HF bead breaker tool (plus a two-foot board to extend its base)
E. HF tire mounting tool (temporarily or permanently bolted to the ground)
F. HF static balance tool & weights (sitting on a flat spot on the ground)
G. About ten minutes per tire (depending on your experience level)

> I can just see all those inexperienced people breaking/chipping their
> alloy rims using breaker bars.


You fundamentally don't seem to understand that mounting tires at home is
even more gentle than it is at the tire shop!

In fact, I have stock BBS rims on my bimmer, where the worst that happens
is that a bit of the red paint from the tire iron transfers to the edge of
the rim.

If you actually think that mounting a tire at home is in any way more
damaging to a wheel than what they do at the shop, you really (really
really really) need to rethink the entire underpinning of your fundamental
belief system.

> For the money I pay to get a puncture repaired (and dynamically
> balanced) by a tyre shop it's not worth the effort to even consider
> Do-it-Yourself.


If you talk about money in any other manner other than the amount saved to
offset the cost of the tools, then you're thinking about DIY differently
than I do.

To me, DIY is about the satisfaction of learning & doing the job right.

If all you care about is money, then you'd pay someone else to clean your
toilet, do your dishes, bake your bread, mow your lawn, sharpen your
chainsaw, sweep the driveway, pick up litter on the sidewalk, tend to the
roses, trim the trees, clean the gutters, change your oil, etc.

Saving money isn't why you do DIY, in that almost all DIY jobs are free in
the end in terms of tool cost and material cost, in that it would almost
always cost more to have someone else do (all those things above) than it
would for you do to them.

You decide WHAT you do based on what you LIKE to do, where if you like
baking bread, then you bake bread making it exactly the way you want it
made, using exactly the ingredients you want to use. If you don't like
baking bread, then you buy whatever you can get at the store, even if it's
filled with ingredients you might not want to know you're ingesting.

I happen to like three things about changing & balancing tires:
a. I like LEARNING all about what it takes, and,
b. I like DOING the job any time I want to, and,
c. I like the CONVENIENCE of changing tires in my pajamas.

https://youtu.be/Gg4iPmU9OYs?t=15

> Without researching prices, I'll bet here in the UK the
> cost of obtaining one or two proper tyre repair patches would actually
> be close to the cost of using someone who does it for a living.


You don't DIY to save money - you DIY to have the satisfaction of doing the
job yourself and knowing that the job is done right.

If saving money was actually your goal, you'd DIY everything, since almost
nothing is worth paying someone else to do at the current shop rates where
I live (Silicon Valley, ~$100/hour minimum, ~$200/hour dealer, $150/hour is
a reasonable average).

Saving money isn't why you DIY.

Almost all DIY jobs are free in the end anyway, as you must be aware, where
the tools pay for themselves over time, where changing tires at home is no
different.

The only thing that changes the break-even period is your calculation of
how many tires you change, and the amount of tools you already have (e.g.,
most of us have a compressor already).

Out here, the average for a tire to be mounted and dynamically balanced is
as high as $50 per tire but it's often around $20 per tire, so let's use
that round number (but use whatever number you want because the tools will
always end up being free in the end anyway).

The three HF tools you need cost about $150, so to have even numbers, let's
add another $50 for incidentals like the tire iron & the weights and the
schrader valve screwdriver.

How many tires do you have to change to break even at those numbers?

$200 divided by 20 bucks per tire is 10 tires, right?

You can use any numbers you like, but they all will end up being around a
dozen tires for the tools to break even and be free, and to start paying
for themselves.

Say you're 40 years old, and you have a wife and two teens, all of whom
have a car in the driveway (in the USA anyway). How many tires is that?

4 cars times 4 tires per car (let's ignore the spare) is 16 tires in the
driveway.

If you change them just once, the tools are already well into the zone of
paying for themselves.

Even if you have only two cars (mom & pop), the tool expense will break
even in a couple of years.

There are storage costs. of course, but luckily no maintenance costs to the
tools. As for storage, since I'm in the Silicon Valley where there is no
snow, I just leave the tools outside with all my shovels and rakes and
chocks and jack stands and ramps, etc., but if you store them inside, then
you need to have a shed or an area in the garage to fit tools.

But these tools are no bigger than any of your other tools (e.g., drill
press, table saw, belt sander, etc.) which you store all the time also.

In summary, you DIY because you ENJOY doing the job right, not because you
want to save money, where you'd be hard pressed to find any repair on a
vehicle that you don't save money if you do it yourself.

Can you even name a /single/ common maintenance task on a vehicle that a
DIY doesn't save you money on over the cost for the tools?
  #125  
Old February 20th 18, 08:56 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
rbowman
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Posts: 159
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

On 02/20/2018 01:39 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
> I don't know when HF came into existence, but thank God they did, as, well,
> for about $150 or $200, you get all the tools you need for changing and
> statically balancing tires that you don't already have, which means they
> pay for themselves in just about 10 tire changes, which, for me, is only a
> year or two (what with 4 cars to maintain).


In 1988 I found the OEM jack was barely adequate to change the tire on
the F150 and stopped at Moab, UT to buy a bottle jack. I made a
disparaging comment about the Chinese manufacture and the guy behind the
counter said he had a made in the USA one for twice the price that
wouldn't jack the truck up any higher. I still have the Chinese jack
and it still works.

I use the HF sockets and wrenches in my bike toolkits. If the kit gets
ripped off I can replace it for about $50 and they get the job done.
Other HF purchases haven't worked as well. When it comes to HF, the
fewer moving parts the better.

  #126  
Old February 20th 18, 09:01 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
rbowman
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Posts: 159
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

On 02/20/2018 05:21 AM, alan_m wrote:
> On 20/02/2018 04:58, ultred ragnusen wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Take a look at that biker's concept of a "pocket knife" at 53 seconds!
>>>> https://youtu.be/M5_nK8V-nU0?t=53
>>>
>>> Compared to what's in my pocket at the moment...
>>> http://www.coldsteel.com/recon-1-tan...0-50-edge.html
>>>
>>> After using it for a few years, I'm not that crazy about the tanto
>>> style, but it is good for prying out nails.

>>
>> Jesus. That's battle gear for heaven's sake!
>>
>> This is what I consider to be a typical pocket knife.
>> https://media.midwayusa.com/producti...365/365933.jpg
>>

>
> Carry the former in the UK and you would probably be arrested if stopped
> or if you used it in public.
>
>


Thanks the Gods I don't live in the UK. I have many knives and I'm sure
they are all illegal in the UK.
  #127  
Old February 20th 18, 09:02 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
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Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

ultred ragnusen > wrote:

> In summary, you DIY because you ENJOY doing the job right, not because you
> want to save money, where you'd be hard pressed to find any repair on a
> vehicle that you don't save money if you do it yourself.
>
> Can you even name a /single/ common maintenance task on a vehicle that a
> DIY doesn't save you money on over the cost for the tools?


BTW, I've heard every argument from every naysayer already, almost all of
whom have never done the job themselves (except Clare, who seems to hate
the DIY job, so that changes his perspective completely - and that's
understandable because DIY is about ENJOYING what you're doing - it's not
about saving money - because ALL DIY jobs save money).

The one and only thing you can't do at home easily is dynamically balance
the tires ... but ... what you can (easily) do is the dynamic balance test.

The test is simple. You simply drive at speed.

In all my tire changing at home, I have had only one tire that I balanced
that had a dynamic imbalance, and that turned out to be because the weight
I put on fell off.

I'm /sure/ there are dynamic imbalance issues in many cars - and, in fact,
if it's only 1 out of 100, that's enough reason for a shop to dynamically
balance /all/ tires, because they can't afford a customer a day complaining
about the vibration.

Bear in mind that vehicles were statically balanced for decades, and that
when you statically balance at home, you do a fantastically good job, and
especially if you've mounted the carcass by the dots, you've used as small
a weight as is possible already.

There are some who argue that you can have a dynamic imbalance and not know
it, but that's just their utter fear of the unknown kicking in.

If you remove all this fear of the unknown (like the idiotic concept that
mounting your tires at home is somehow less gentle than it is to mount them
at a shop), then what you end up with is a job that is about as complex as
is changing your oil or climbing on a ladder to clean out the gutters.

Like all DIY jobs, you do it because you ENJOY doing it yourself, but, like
all DIY jobs, the tools pay for themselves, and like all DIY jobs, you do
them at your convenience.

For example, I buy tires by the specs from Simple Tires, generally with
free shipping (which is critical because Tire Rack UPS shipping is
something like $15 to $20 per tire alone!) and I have the UPS guy deliver
them right to the side of my house (he's used to it by now).

Then, whenever I feel like it, I spend an hour to mount and balance the
tires, in my pajamas if that's how I feel at that moment.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ht+mount+tires

It's that easy.

Anyone who says otherwise, either hates the task (like Clare seems to), or
has never done it.

Just look at the youtube videos, for example, where it's pretty darn easy,
but my recommendation is to use the half-dozen tricks I already mentioned,
such as bolting the mounter to the ground (I've done it on a pallet but
it's just not worth the trouble).
  #128  
Old February 20th 18, 09:05 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
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Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

James Wilkinson Sword > wrote:

> Get a life and find something fun to do.


Pot, kettle, black.
  #129  
Old February 20th 18, 09:06 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

James Wilkinson Sword > wrote:

> Learn basic computer skills.


Pot, kettle, black.
  #130  
Old February 20th 18, 10:17 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
ultred ragnusen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 54
Default Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

alan_m > wrote:

> Something you can buy at the local hardware store for less than £100 or
> $100 is unlikely to have been individually calibrated or finely
> adjusted. It is more likely to have had a go/no test after production.


There's good news and bad news in these numbers.

Bearing in mind that, for home use, a few percent error is ok, all you're
really looking for is a gross error.

How much is an acceptable gross error?
I don't know.

Maybe 10% for a head bolt or valve cover bolt?
Maybe even 20% for a lug nut?

Let's assume it's 5%.
All we need is a calibration standard that is plus or minus 5% then.

That's the trick.
Where do we get a calibration standard that will pay for itself?

A lot of people seem to use this $30 HF #68283 digital torque wrench
adapter:
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-...ter-68283.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcOql9eK_Uk

Here's the owners manual:
http://manuals.harborfreight.com/man...8999/68283.pdf

If I didn't already have plenty of torque wrenches, I'd buy that, but I
don't need more torque wrenches as all tools have storage costs.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...nch+adapter%3A
 




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