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Wheel bearing or tire noise? Subtopic tire recommendation please.



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 3rd 10, 06:17 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
tonyw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Wheel bearing or tire noise? Subtopic tire recommendation please.

Hi,
I've been trying to diagnose a droning noise at about 70 km/hr on my
1990 Golf with manual trans. (In Imperial, 70 is about 35 mph). The
tires are Yokohama Avid Touring tires 175/70-13". The front pair are 2
years old, the rear pair are 8 years old. The sound is very much like
tread noise, a whirring that maxes out in volume at 70 km/hr. There is
a hunting to the drone (undulating) suggesting it's 2 or more tires
and the undulating is the droning being out of sync a bit between 2 or
more tires. I've swapped the 2 font tires, same noise.

To check for bearings, when I steer to the right right the noise
seems to diminish, so the right front bearing? Or just riding on
another part of the tire? Swerving left seems to increase the noise
level--so another clue to the right side front bearing or just riding
on different part of tire? I can't decide what it is. If it's a rear
bearing, steering shouldn't make any difference right? I've lifted the
car and spun the wheels by hand but no apparent bearing noise I can
hear or feel. And no loose wheels when the top of the tire is shaken
side to side.

Of the rear tires (Yokohama), I discovered one has a very slight
bulge on the tread so I'm going to replace the rear pair tomorrow. But
I don't think the bulge is causing the droning.

Subtopic:
The selection of 13" tires is very slim and I've narrowed down to 2
brands. What experience have people had with Toyo Extensa A/S tires?
They get good ratings and reviews (mostly). Next choice are Michelin
Harmony's (again mixed reviews, mostly good). My criteria are good
against hydroplaning, low rolling resistance, quiet ride, good tread
life, and responsive handling.

The reason I have 2 new and 2 old tires is a couple of years ago,
one Yokohama Avid tire had a separated belt so I got 2 new front tires
(match the tires on the same "axle"). I was going to replace the rear
pair the next year and guess what, I can't get Yokohama Avid tires
anymore. Should have bought 4 at the same time 2 yrs ago.

Other clues, I had Nokia Hakkapalita's on during the winter and the
droning noise was there too. So again I'm thinking bearings. Let's
see, what else? Oh tire pressure is 31.5 front 29 rear.

My next step is to take the 4 tires off my wife's '85 Golf and put
them on the 90 to see if I can eliminate the tires from the equation.
For stores, we've got Kaltire, OK tire, Fountain, Walmart, Canadian
Tire nearby.
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  #2  
Old July 4th 10, 02:47 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
John Henderson
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Posts: 36
Default Wheel bearing or tire noise? Subtopic tire recommendation please.

tonyw wrote:

> Hi,
> I've been trying to diagnose a droning noise at about 70 km/hr on my
> 1990 Golf with manual trans. (In Imperial, 70 is about 35 mph). The
> tires are Yokohama Avid Touring tires 175/70-13". The front pair are 2
> years old, the rear pair are 8 years old. The sound is very much like
> tread noise, a whirring that maxes out in volume at 70 km/hr. There is
> a hunting to the drone (undulating) suggesting it's 2 or more tires
> and the undulating is the droning being out of sync a bit between 2 or
> more tires. I've swapped the 2 font tires, same noise.
>
> To check for bearings, when I steer to the right right the noise
> seems to diminish, so the right front bearing? Or just riding on
> another part of the tire? Swerving left seems to increase the noise
> level--so another clue to the right side front bearing or just riding
> on different part of tire? I can't decide what it is. If it's a rear
> bearing, steering shouldn't make any difference right?


Steering to the left will increase the load on both right-side
wheels - front and rear.

> I've lifted the car and spun the wheels by hand but no apparent bearing
> noise I can hear or feel. And no loose wheels when the top of the tire is
> shaken side to side.


Feel the hub temperatures after a longish run with minimal
braking.

Both sides should be about the same temperature, with the front
hubs being warmer than the rear. A noisy wheel bearing will
cause that hub to run hotter.

> Of the rear tires (Yokohama), I discovered one has a very slight
> bulge on the tread so I'm going to replace the rear pair tomorrow. But
> I don't think the bulge is causing the droning.
>
> Subtopic:
> The selection of 13" tires is very slim and I've narrowed down to 2
> brands. What experience have people had with Toyo Extensa A/S tires?
> They get good ratings and reviews (mostly). Next choice are Michelin
> Harmony's (again mixed reviews, mostly good). My criteria are good
> against hydroplaning, low rolling resistance, quiet ride, good tread
> life, and responsive handling.


Maybe you haven't considered these, but can you find some
Continental EcoContact 3 tyres?

John

> The reason I have 2 new and 2 old tires is a couple of years ago,
> one Yokohama Avid tire had a separated belt so I got 2 new front tires
> (match the tires on the same "axle"). I was going to replace the rear
> pair the next year and guess what, I can't get Yokohama Avid tires
> anymore. Should have bought 4 at the same time 2 yrs ago.
>
> Other clues, I had Nokia Hakkapalita's on during the winter and the
> droning noise was there too. So again I'm thinking bearings. Let's
> see, what else? Oh tire pressure is 31.5 front 29 rear.
>
> My next step is to take the 4 tires off my wife's '85 Golf and put
> them on the 90 to see if I can eliminate the tires from the equation.
> For stores, we've got Kaltire, OK tire, Fountain, Walmart, Canadian
> Tire nearby.


  #3  
Old July 7th 10, 04:55 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
tonyw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Wheel bearing or tire noise? Subtopic tire recommendation please.

On Jul 3, 5:47*pm, John Henderson > wrote:
> Steering to the left will increase the load on both *right-side
> wheels - front and rear.


Thanks John,
That makes sense, centripetal force puts weight on both outside
bearings, front and rear. I just came back from 500 km trip and when
we stopped for a break, Driving was all hwy speeds with no braking. I
checked the temp of the steel wheels (proxy for hub temp). Both front
wheels on both sides were cool. When we got home and I checked again,
the wheels were quite warm, I'm guessing from braking on the off-ramp
and braking in the city. Seems the bearings aren't running hot.

> Feel the hub temperatures after a longish run with minimal
> braking.
>
> Both sides should be about the same temperature, with the front
> hubs being warmer than the rear. A noisy wheel bearing will
> cause that hub to run hotter.
>


I had some Continentals that were the original tires on the 1990 Golf
and they cupped badly so rightly or wrongly, have since avoided
Continentals. Incidentally, on the pre-trip check, I noticed a bulge
in the tread of one of the 8 year old Yokohama Avid Touring tires. I
did some checking around for availability and there were a pair of
Michelin Harmony's in a city 1/2 hour out on the route so got those
the morning of the trip. They ran great and seemed to have a slightly
smaller diameter as compared to my GPS speed readout, the speedometer
was reading about 7-8 km/hr faster than GPS. With the old tires the
difference was about 6 km/hr faster on the speedo compared to GPS.

An aside, we have been doing this trip 8-10 times a year for the last
20 years with this same car. We take the exact same route (only one
hwy so no choice) and the mileage from the last stop to home was 152
km with the new tires whereas with the old tires, it was consistently
148 km. This is conjecture, but I wonder if this is how some tire
manufacturer's can generate "fuel savings" by slightly decreasing the
tire size so the odometer reads higher for the same gas consumption,
therefore a better apparent gas mileage. For my one trip, this is a
2.7% difference in odometer reading which translates into a 2.7%
improvement in fuel economy assuming I consumed the same quantity of
fuel.

> Maybe you haven't considered these, but can you find some
> Continental EcoContact 3 tyres?
>
> John

  #4  
Old July 11th 10, 08:21 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
tonyw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Wheel bearing or tire noise? Subtopic tire recommendation please.

On Jul 2, 9:17*pm, tonyw > wrote:
> Hi,
> * I've been trying to diagnose a droning noise at about 70 km/hr on my
> 1990 Golf *with *manual trans. (In Imperial, 70 is about 35 mph).


Hi, an update. I changed out the right front wheel bearing and the
droning noise is gone. Yay. What I learned:

- Others (Dave aka vwdoc1) suggested this elsewhere-when rotating a
bearing on the car to check for noise, take everything off the hub.
Initially I raised the car and spun the tires. Bearing sounded like
the other side. Only when I was replacing the bearing that when I spun
the hub I could hear and feel the roughness in the bearing. It was
definitely shot. So, take the tire/rim off the hub before spinning.
Take brake caliper off if brake pad drag muffles the bearing noise.

- Bearing noise sure can sound like tire tread noise. I was convinced
the problem was the tires. So don't discount bad bearings in the
diagnosis.

- To free the hub/bearing carrier, just need to remove the horizontal
ball joint clamp bolt and push the control arm down. I made the
mistake of starting to take the 3 bolts off the ball joint and sheared
off two bolts. I ended up replacing the ball joint.

- I was pretty gentle with the slide hammer taking the hub out.
Instead of splitting the bearing as I expected, the hub came right out
of the bearing! That was easy and saved the time to get the remains of
the bearing inner race off the hub.

- Get the best snap ring pliers you can find/afford. Those snap rings
are hard to take out and get back in, especially the inside one. Of
the individual tasks, the snap rings took the longest to get out and
back in.

 




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