94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies

The saga continues....

Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
replaced 2 lifters.

Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
for a minute anyway.

Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.

Fuel pressure is good and steady.

Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
within within range.

Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
times.

I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.

Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:

111 -- All systems OK
10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
(had compression test and OK)
211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
(replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)

When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.

HELP.......

Thanks Jim

Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.



On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:

>The saga continues....
>
>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>replaced 2 lifters.
>
>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>for a minute anyway.
>
>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>
>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>
>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>within within range.
>
>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>times.
>
>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>
>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>
>111 -- All systems OK
>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
> (had compression test and OK)
>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>
>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>
>HELP.......
>
>Thanks Jim

You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.

How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.

When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?

Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
mixture.

Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?

Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?

Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
wait for an hour though.

What is the fuel pressure you have?

Good luck

J Adams wrote:
> Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>
>
>>The saga continues....
>>
>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>
>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>for a minute anyway.
>>
>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>
>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>
>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>within within range.
>>
>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>times.
>>
>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>
>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>
>>111 -- All systems OK
>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>> (had compression test and OK)
>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>
>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>
>>HELP.......
>>
>>Thanks Jim

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:

I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
of these areas. Correct?
>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.

If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.

If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?

This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
as it dies.
>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>mixture.

Yes, I double checked those.
>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?

No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
suggestions?
>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?

Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>wait for an hour though.

Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>What is the fuel pressure you have?

Thanks, I need it at this point.
>Good luck
>
>J Adams wrote:
>> Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The saga continues....
>>>
>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>
>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>
>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>
>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>
>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>within within range.
>>>
>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>times.
>>>
>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>
>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>
>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>
>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>
>>>HELP.......
>>>
>>>Thanks Jim

Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.

Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
reversed?

Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?

Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.

To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
the injectors.

To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
does not, then you know the problem is electrical.

Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
crank and camshaft position sensors.

Good luck!



J Adams wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
> of these areas. Correct?
>
>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>
>
> If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
> just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
> running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>
>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>
>
> If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
> accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>
>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>
>
> This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
> that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
> then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
> point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
> as it dies.
>
>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>mixture.
>
>
> Yes, I double checked those.
>
>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>
>
> No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
> smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
> suggestions?
>
>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>
>
> Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>
>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>wait for an hour though.
>
>
> Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>
>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>
>
> Thanks, I need it at this point.
>
>>Good luck
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>
>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>
>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>
>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>
>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>
>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>within within range.
>>>>
>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>times.
>>>>
>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>
>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>
>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>
>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>
>>>>HELP.......
>>>>
>>>>Thanks Jim

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote:

There are a couple of other observations I should note:
The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor
acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even
at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart
easily which is not the case now.
1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect.
2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild.
3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively
worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.
>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.

No, the fittings are different sizes
>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
>reversed?

Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the
exhaust and black soot.
>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?

I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug
wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for
testing purposes?
>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.

Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?
>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
>the injectors.

Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake
manifold then reattach the throttle body?
>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
>does not, then you know the problem is electrical.

As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and
no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may
be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items
you mention above.
>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
>crank and camshaft position sensors.
>
>Good luck!
or a grenade :-)

By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks
>
>
>J Adams wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>> I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
>> of these areas. Correct?
>>
>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>>
>>
>> If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
>> just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
>> running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>>
>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>>
>>
>> If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
>> accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>>
>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>>
>>
>> This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
>> that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
>> then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
>> point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
>> as it dies.
>>
>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>>mixture.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I double checked those.
>>
>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>>
>>
>> No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
>> smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
>> suggestions?
>>
>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>>
>>
>> Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>>
>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>>wait for an hour though.
>>
>>
>> Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>>
>>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>>
>>
>> Thanks, I need it at this point.
>>
>>>Good luck
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>>
>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>>
>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>>within within range.
>>>>>
>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>>times.
>>>>>
>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>>
>>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>>
>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>>
>>>>>HELP.......
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks Jim

Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical
or fuel system.

So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction
duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress
the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the
starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If
the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start.

This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine
flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while
cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start.

The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when
the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in
getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil
current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to
the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to
observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps.

Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted?

I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose
the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just
that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine
and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated
pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic
components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap.

The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine.

How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor?

Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter
from the exhaust pipe? Was the engine burning oil? Could the cat be
plugged?

Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south
east FL i can give you a hand.

Again, good luck!



J Adams wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> There are a couple of other observations I should note:
> The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor
> acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even
> at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart
> easily which is not the case now.
> 1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect.
> 2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild.
> 3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively
> worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.
>
>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.
>
>
> No, the fittings are different sizes
>
>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
>>reversed?
>
>
> Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the
> exhaust and black soot.
>
>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?
>
>
> I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug
> wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for
> testing purposes?
>
>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.
>
>
> Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?
>
>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
>>the injectors.
>
>
> Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake
> manifold then reattach the throttle body?
>
>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical.
>
>
> As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and
> no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may
> be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items
> you mention above.
>
>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
>>crank and camshaft position sensors.
>>
>>Good luck!
>
> or a grenade :-)
>
> By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks
>
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
>>>of these areas. Correct?
>>>
>>>
>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>>>
>>>
>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>>>
>>>
>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>>>
>>>
>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>>>
>>>
>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
>>>as it dies.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>>>mixture.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, I double checked those.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>>>
>>>
>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
>>>suggestions?
>>>
>>>
>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>>>
>>>
>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>>>wait for an hour though.
>>>
>>>
>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>>>
>>>
>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks, I need it at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Good luck
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>>>within within range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>HELP.......
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks Jim

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote:

If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also
identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I
should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I
read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot,
well ocassionally maybe.
>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical
>or fuel system.

Tried this with carb and choke cleaner
>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction
>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress
>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the
>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If
>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start.
I had to this by myself and quickly.
1) Removed air duct
2) Sprayed some into open throttle body
3) Tried to restart, no start.
4) Sprayed lots
5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started
6) Sprayed lots more
7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5
This may have been more effective with another person helping
Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran
OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each
time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using
the carb cleaner.
>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine
>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while
>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start.

Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when
attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now?
>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when
>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in
>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil
>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to
>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to
>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps.

Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never
ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could
they be fouled?
>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted?

Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for
assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well).
>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose
>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just
>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine
>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated
>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic
>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap.
>
>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine.

I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a
pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same.
>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor?
>
Would this be the next step?
>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter
>from the exhaust pipe?

No
>Was the engine burning oil?

How do I check for plugged cat conv?
>Could the cat be plugged?

I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona
>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south
>east FL i can give you a hand.
>
Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful.
>Again, good luck!
>
>
>
>J Adams wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>> There are a couple of other observations I should note:
>> The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor
>> acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even
>> at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart
>> easily which is not the case now.
>> 1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect.
>> 2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild.
>> 3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively
>> worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.
>>
>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.
>>
>>
>> No, the fittings are different sizes
>>
>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
>>>reversed?
>>
>>
>> Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the
>> exhaust and black soot.
>>
>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?
>>
>>
>> I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug
>> wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for
>> testing purposes?
>>
>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.
>>
>>
>> Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?
>>
>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
>>>the injectors.
>>
>>
>> Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake
>> manifold then reattach the throttle body?
>>
>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical.
>>
>>
>> As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and
>> no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may
>> be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items
>> you mention above.
>>
>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
>>>crank and camshaft position sensors.
>>>
>>>Good luck!
>>
>> or a grenade :-)
>>
>> By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks
>>
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
>>>>of these areas. Correct?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
>>>>as it dies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>>>>mixture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I double checked those.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
>>>>suggestions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>>>>wait for an hour though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Good luck
>>>>>
>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>>>>within within range.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>HELP.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks Jim

Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system
and for now we can forget about the rest.

Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it
before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail.

Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the
injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into
the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from
touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and
see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way
is more cumbersome but more realistic as well.

If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and
you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and
the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then
indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my
experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity.

Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not
sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set.

I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see
that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or
black with lots of soot or deposits.

To check the cat converter, use this as reference:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm

Good luck!

J Adams wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also
> identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I
> should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I
> read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot,
> well ocassionally maybe.
>
>>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical
>>or fuel system.
>
>
> Tried this with carb and choke cleaner
>
>>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction
>>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress
>>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the
>>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If
>>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start.
>
> I had to this by myself and quickly.
> 1) Removed air duct
> 2) Sprayed some into open throttle body
> 3) Tried to restart, no start.
> 4) Sprayed lots
> 5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started
> 6) Sprayed lots more
> 7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5
> This may have been more effective with another person helping
> Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran
> OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each
> time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using
> the carb cleaner.
>
>>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine
>>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while
>>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start.
>
>
> Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when
> attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now?
>
>>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when
>>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in
>>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil
>>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to
>>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to
>>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps.
>
>
> Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never
> ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could
> they be fouled?
>
>>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted?
>
>
> Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for
> assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well).
>
>>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose
>>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just
>>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine
>>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated
>>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic
>>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap.
>>
>>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine.
>
>
> I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a
> pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same.
>
>>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor?
>>
>
> Would this be the next step?
>
>>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter
>
>>from the exhaust pipe?
>
> No
>
>>Was the engine burning oil?
>
>
> How do I check for plugged cat conv?
>
>>Could the cat be plugged?
>
>
> I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona
>
>>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south
>>east FL i can give you a hand.
>>
>
> Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful.
>
>>Again, good luck!
>>
>>
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>There are a couple of other observations I should note:
>>>The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor
>>>acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even
>>>at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart
>>>easily which is not the case now.
>>>1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect.
>>>2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild.
>>>3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively
>>>worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
>>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, the fittings are different sizes
>>>
>>>
>>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
>>>>reversed?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the
>>>exhaust and black soot.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?
>>>
>>>
>>>I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug
>>>wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for
>>>testing purposes?
>>>
>>>
>>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
>>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
>>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.
>>>
>>>
>>>Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?
>>>
>>>
>>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
>>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
>>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
>>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
>>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
>>>>the injectors.
>>>
>>>
>>>Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake
>>>manifold then reattach the throttle body?
>>>
>>>
>>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
>>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
>>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical.
>>>
>>>
>>>As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and
>>>no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may
>>>be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items
>>>you mention above.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
>>>>crank and camshaft position sensors.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck!
>>>
>>>or a grenade :-)
>>>
>>>By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
>>>>>of these areas. Correct?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
>>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
>>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
>>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
>>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
>>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
>>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
>>>>>as it dies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>>>>>mixture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, I double checked those.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
>>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
>>>>>suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>>>>>wait for an hour though.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>>>>>within within range.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>HELP.......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote:

>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical
>or fuel system.

I'm beginning to believe the issue somehow is related to fuel, but
will have to wait until I have an asisstant to do a better job with
the starting fluid. But if the fuel pressure is good, 30psi, and I
don't smell gas at the fuel pressure regulator vaccuum line what could
could cause the starving for fuel symptom?
>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction
>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress
>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the
>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If
>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start.
>
>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine
>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while
>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start.

Just stuck a automotive stethoscope on injector 1 and could here a
steady click that varied according to the fluctuating RPMs. The reason
I chose #1 is the KOEO error code, 10, for Cylinder #1.
>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when
>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in
>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil
>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to
>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to
>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps.

Pulled #6 plug and looked fine
>Are the spark plugs fouled?

Checked gap and OK. As an aside, if the gap was off wouldn't that
affect the start-up first.
>The gap properly adjusted?
>
>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose
>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just
>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine
>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated
>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic
>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap.
>
>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine.
>
>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor?
>
>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter
>from the exhaust pipe? Was the engine burning oil? Could the cat be
>plugged?
>
>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south
>east FL i can give you a hand.
>
>Again, good luck!
>
>
>
>J Adams wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>> There are a couple of other observations I should note:
>> The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor
>> acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even
>> at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart
>> easily which is not the case now.
>> 1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect.
>> 2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild.
>> 3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively
>> worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.
>>
>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of
>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.
>>
>>
>> No, the fittings are different sizes
>>
>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose
>>>reversed?
>>
>>
>> Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the
>> exhaust and black soot.
>>
>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?
>>
>>
>> I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug
>> wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for
>> testing purposes?
>>
>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark
>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it
>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.
>>
>>
>> Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?
>>
>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for
>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small
>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would
>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the
>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from
>>>the injectors.
>>
>>
>> Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake
>> manifold then reattach the throttle body?
>>
>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid
>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it
>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical.
>>
>>
>> As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and
>> no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may
>> be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items
>> you mention above.
>>
>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the
>>>crank and camshaft position sensors.
>>>
>>>Good luck!
>>
>> or a grenade :-)
>>
>> By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks
>>
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one
>>>>of these areas. Correct?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I
>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the
>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles,
>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the
>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound
>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT
>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and
>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that
>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even
>>>>as it dies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light
>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the
>>>>>mixture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I double checked those.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can
>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any
>>>>suggestions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the
>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to
>>>>>wait for an hour though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Good luck
>>>>>
>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The saga continues....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground
>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and
>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten,
>>>>>>>for a minute anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and
>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested
>>>>>>>within within range.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3
>>>>>>>times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK
>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test
>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK)
>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal
>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start
>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse
>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying
>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then
>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>HELP.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks Jim