What I want vs. what the reality could support

"bfd" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 5:52 am, AD > wrote:
> On 26 ???, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
SNIP

> However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny.

Well a manual transmission might have been desirable on a diesel when
automatics were three speed, wasted lots of energy in the torque converter
and you could get substantially better performance [and economy] out of a
four or preferably five speed manual*.

Nowadays BMW autos are 6 or even 8 speed and for a diesel it will be a rare
driver, if any, who could do better in a manual.

My first two 7 series were 5 speed manual, however they became rarer (735il
only on E32) and then non existent (E38), so my last three have all been
auto (4 speed, 5 speed switchable and now steptronic).






* my last two cars before BMW's were Rover SD1's. These both had excellent
5sp manuals. The auto was a rubbish 3sp unit, which thrashed the nuts out
of the engine at speed [literally if you unwary] and in which top was the
same ratio as 4th in the manual

On Jan 26, 11:10*am, David > wrote:
> * That 335d is a
>
> > sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
> > offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
> > liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
> > Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....
>
> Actually, the 123d is a 2.0 litre

Thanks, I didn't realize that a 2.0 liter twin turbo diesel could put
out 295 ft-lb of torque! Good Luck!

On Jan 26, 11:10*am, David > wrote:
> * That 335d is a
>
> > sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
> > offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
> > liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
> > Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....
>
> Actually, the 123d is a 2.0 litre

Thanks, I didn't realize that a 2.0 liter twin turbo diesel could put
out 295 ft-lb of torque! Good Luck!

On 26/01/2011 03:56, dizzy wrote:
> AD wrote:
>
>> Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
>> all american aversion to diesels
>> stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> Yes, there's also the poor performance. They were slow. Of course,
> in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> decent levels of HP.
>
> Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> Personally, I don't even care for the new gas turbo motors, where the
> fad (enabled by modern engine controls) is to give it a table-flat
> torque curve. I like to feel the torque rise with RPM (to a point).
>


My last petrol turbo car produced max torque between 2,500 rpm and 4,500
rpm, but the max power was developed at 5,700 rpm.
But that car *really* came alive after 5,000 rpm, well past peak torque.

My experiments with accelerometers have demonstrated that the greatest
'g' (or acceleration) was produced between the peak torque rpm and the
peak power rpm.

On 26/01/2011 03:56, dizzy wrote:
> AD wrote:
>
>> Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
>> all american aversion to diesels
>> stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> Yes, there's also the poor performance. They were slow. Of course,
> in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> decent levels of HP.
>
> Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> Personally, I don't even care for the new gas turbo motors, where the
> fad (enabled by modern engine controls) is to give it a table-flat
> torque curve. I like to feel the torque rise with RPM (to a point).
>


My last petrol turbo car produced max torque between 2,500 rpm and 4,500
rpm, but the max power was developed at 5,700 rpm.
But that car *really* came alive after 5,000 rpm, well past peak torque.

My experiments with accelerometers have demonstrated that the greatest
'g' (or acceleration) was produced between the peak torque rpm and the
peak power rpm.

On Jan 26, 11:34*am, "R. Mark Clayton" >
wrote:
> "bfd" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 26, 5:52 am, AD > wrote:> On 26 ???, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
>
> way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
> coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
> sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny.
>
> Well a manual transmission might have been desirable on a diesel when
> automatics were three speed, wasted lots of energy in the torque converter
> and you could get substantially better performance [and economy] out of a
> four or preferably five speed manual*.
>
> Nowadays BMW autos are 6 or even 8 speed and for a diesel it will be a rare
> driver, if any, who could do better in a manual.
>
Today's BMWs usually have six speed manual transmissions that are easy
to shift and maintain, i.e., changing manual transmission fluid every
30K miles or so is a very simple job and it doesn't have the
problematic reputation of BMW's auto transmissions.

> My first two 7 series were 5 speed manual, however they became rarer (735il
> only on E32) and then non existent (E38), so my last three have all been
> auto (4 speed, 5 speed switchable and now steptronic).
>
7 Series are very nice cars. However, it is cater towards the high end
buyer who only seem to want automatic transmissions.

With the cost of today's BMWs, hopefully, these 6 and 8 speed
automatic transmissions have improved enough to last beyond 100K
miles. Good Luck!

On Jan 26, 11:34*am, "R. Mark Clayton" >
wrote:
> "bfd" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 26, 5:52 am, AD > wrote:> On 26 ???, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
>
> way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
> coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
> sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny.
>
> Well a manual transmission might have been desirable on a diesel when
> automatics were three speed, wasted lots of energy in the torque converter
> and you could get substantially better performance [and economy] out of a
> four or preferably five speed manual*.
>
> Nowadays BMW autos are 6 or even 8 speed and for a diesel it will be a rare
> driver, if any, who could do better in a manual.
>
Today's BMWs usually have six speed manual transmissions that are easy
to shift and maintain, i.e., changing manual transmission fluid every
30K miles or so is a very simple job and it doesn't have the
problematic reputation of BMW's auto transmissions.

> My first two 7 series were 5 speed manual, however they became rarer (735il
> only on E32) and then non existent (E38), so my last three have all been
> auto (4 speed, 5 speed switchable and now steptronic).
>
7 Series are very nice cars. However, it is cater towards the high end
buyer who only seem to want automatic transmissions.

With the cost of today's BMWs, hopefully, these 6 and 8 speed
automatic transmissions have improved enough to last beyond 100K
miles. Good Luck!

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 05:48:11 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:

>On 25 ???, 14:58, Dean Dark > wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 04:07:44 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:
>> >> >IIRC the Vitesse had a lethal flaw, whereby in hard cornering the outside
>> >> >rear wheel would fold under the car.
>>
>> >> That would only happen if you snapped off the throttle in mid-corner,
>> >> which no capable driver would do. *It's the same kind of thinking as
>> >> the people who believe that the Porsche 911 has a "fatal flaw" because
>> >> it will spin out if you do the same thing.
>>
>> >In the best Homer Simpson voice: "Umm, the rear engine layout + RWD...
>> >massive weight resting on the rear axle. I love oversteer"
>>
>> ... and that is *exactly* the kind of misguided 'Homer Simpson' type
>> of thinking that I was talking about. *Believe it or not, there are
>> many people out there who think that understeer is A Good Thing.
>
>Yes, I believe you, judging by the fact that there are few affordable
>rear wheel drivers
>these days and most of the surviving ones have the engine in front.

Or in the middle.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 05:48:11 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:

>On 25 ???, 14:58, Dean Dark > wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 04:07:44 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:
>> >> >IIRC the Vitesse had a lethal flaw, whereby in hard cornering the outside
>> >> >rear wheel would fold under the car.
>>
>> >> That would only happen if you snapped off the throttle in mid-corner,
>> >> which no capable driver would do. *It's the same kind of thinking as
>> >> the people who believe that the Porsche 911 has a "fatal flaw" because
>> >> it will spin out if you do the same thing.
>>
>> >In the best Homer Simpson voice: "Umm, the rear engine layout + RWD...
>> >massive weight resting on the rear axle. I love oversteer"
>>
>> ... and that is *exactly* the kind of misguided 'Homer Simpson' type
>> of thinking that I was talking about. *Believe it or not, there are
>> many people out there who think that understeer is A Good Thing.
>
>Yes, I believe you, judging by the fact that there are few affordable
>rear wheel drivers
>these days and most of the surviving ones have the engine in front.

Or in the middle.

In some European countries diesels account for more than half of all sales.
Even in the previously suspicious-of-diesel UK sales are now very high.

More and more sporty cars are coming out with diesel engines.

It is still a case of horses for courses. For low-mileage drives diesel is
not worthwhile, especially as its price in the UK is higher than
petrol/gasoline.

DAS
--
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--
"bfd" > wrote in message
...
[...]
>
One thing not raised or that I might have missed is many American gas
stations do not sell diesel and only have gasoline pumps. For example,
in my area, arguably the cheapest gas is usually found at Costco.
Costco only sells regular and premium gasoline. No diesel. This lack
of infrastructure, combined with the previously mentioned negative
points - smelly, dirty, loud, slow - all combine to bias diesel gas.

However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....