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Starter solenoid current?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 2nd 11, 11:24 PM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
D Walford
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Posts: 15
Default Starter solenoid current?

On 03/11/2011 1:35 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
> > wrote:
>
>> On 11/2/2011 3:45 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>>> Something I don't know ... and can't seem to find out all that
>>> easily.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50.
>>>
>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm
>>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.
>>>
>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>> solenoid.

>
>> I believe you will find there is a relay in the circuit. What year
>> Golf is it? BTW, yes, it is a lot of current--more than one might
>> expect.

>
> 1990. There's 4mm wiring into and out of the ignition switch when I
> last had that part of the sah and steering column uncovered.
>
> Current flow diagrams (two sources) draw it as direct-wired.
> No relay.


Most starter relays are no more 30amps so that suggests the current is
less than 30amps on most cars.
Not having a relay is most unusual but it is a VW.
Are you trying to fix a fault, why do you need to know how much current
its drawing?


Daryl
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  #12  
Old November 3rd 11, 01:46 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Bernd Felsche[_2_]
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Posts: 129
Default Starter solenoid current?

D Walford > wrote:
>On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>> > wrote:
>>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote


>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50.


>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm
>>>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.


>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>>> solenoid.


>>> Why not put an ammeter in series?


>> Because it could fry the poor thing ...
>> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps.
>> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more.
>> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter.


>That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would be
>very unusual for there not to be a relay?


Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current
being intermittent.

As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that
same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few
million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with
the same.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
  #13  
Old November 3rd 11, 01:49 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Bernd Felsche[_2_]
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Posts: 129
Default Starter solenoid current?

D Walford > wrote:
>On 03/11/2011 1:35 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>> > wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2011 3:45 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:


>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50.
>>>>
>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm
>>>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.
>>>>
>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>>> solenoid.


>>> I believe you will find there is a relay in the circuit. What year
>>> Golf is it? BTW, yes, it is a lot of current--more than one might
>>> expect.


>> 1990. There's 4mm wiring into and out of the ignition switch when I
>> last had that part of the sah and steering column uncovered.
>>
>> Current flow diagrams (two sources) draw it as direct-wired.
>> No relay.


>Most starter relays are no more 30amps so that suggests the current is
>less than 30amps on most cars.
>Not having a relay is most unusual but it is a VW.
>Are you trying to fix a fault, why do you need to know how much current
>its drawing?


No fault. Yet. :-)
<http://golf2lin.wordpress.com/node-design/front-body/>
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
  #14  
Old November 3rd 11, 09:27 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Clocky[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Starter solenoid current?

Bernd Felsche wrote:
> D Walford > wrote:
>> On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>>> > wrote:
>>>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote

>
>>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50.

>
>>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the
>>>>> 4mm wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.

>
>>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>>>> solenoid.

>
>>>> Why not put an ammeter in series?

>
>>> Because it could fry the poor thing ...
>>> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps.
>>> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more.
>>> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter.

>
>> That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would
>> be very unusual for there not to be a relay?

>
> Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current
> being intermittent.
>
> As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that
> same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few
> million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with
> the same.


I don't think the current draw is as high as you think. I remember a common
fix for starting problems due to volt drop was to fit a standard relay.

The heavier guage wiring would be to reduce volt drop, not for high current
draw.



  #15  
Old November 3rd 11, 11:45 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
D Walford
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Starter solenoid current?

On 03/11/2011 8:27 PM, Clocky wrote:
> Bernd Felsche wrote:
>> D > wrote:
>>> On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote

>>
>>>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50.

>>
>>>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the
>>>>>> 4mm wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.

>>
>>>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>>>>> solenoid.

>>
>>>>> Why not put an ammeter in series?

>>
>>>> Because it could fry the poor thing ...
>>>> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps.
>>>> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more.
>>>> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter.

>>
>>> That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would
>>> be very unusual for there not to be a relay?

>>
>> Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current
>> being intermittent.
>>
>> As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that
>> same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few
>> million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with
>> the same.

>
> I don't think the current draw is as high as you think. I remember a common
> fix for starting problems due to volt drop was to fit a standard relay.
>


That was a common fix on many older Toyota's, I've even fitted a couple
myself for the same reason.

> The heavier guage wiring would be to reduce volt drop, not for high current
> draw.
>


Most likely spot on.


Daryl

  #16  
Old November 4th 11, 10:02 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Scotty[_2_]
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Posts: 13
Default Starter solenoid current?



"PeterD" wrote in message ...

On 11/2/2011 8:36 AM, Scotty wrote:

> I think that you are thinking of the starter motor current which can
> easily reach 300amps. He is asking about the current draw of the actual
> solenoid.


No, I'm thinking the solenoid, which does draw more current that most
people realize.

>
> theres two ways of easily testing the actual draw. Use an ammeter in
> series (or clamp style) and test it, or use an ohmmeter to see what the
> resistive load is and work it out that way @ 12v.
>


An ohmmeter would be less accurate due to the lower resistance, and
would not provide a good indication of shorted turns (assuming that is
his problem...) The best testing tool is a DC clampon meter, a tool that
I find invaluable when diagnosing starter problems.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ><><><><><>


I'm sure that a DC Clamp meter is definitely the best option to start with,
if its under 10 amps then utilise an in series meter as they are more
accurate than most DC clamp meters.

Then again, DC clamp meters are not something that most people have lying
around in their garage.

  #17  
Old November 5th 11, 06:51 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Bernd Felsche[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Starter solenoid current?

Paul Saccani > wrote:
>Bernd Felsche wrote:


>>Something I don't know ... and can't seem to find out all that
>>easily.
>>
>>I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid,
>>(not the starter motor) at terminal 50.
>>
>>It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm
>>wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a
>>little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity.
>>
>>So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none
>>the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter
>>solenoid.


>Easiest way to find out is to stick a clamp meter on it. If you don't
>have one, as usual, I can offer to loan you one and you can decline
>the offer.


I've got one. Actually, a couple.

>It also depends on what timescale you want to look at. As an
>inductive rather than resistive load, the current can have quite wild
>transients, but for average current, 3 to 10 A would be typical for a
>pre-engaged starter, and a clamp meter would be able to provide the
>average current no worries.


>If you do want to know in more detail, and inductive probe and a
>storage oscilloscope and a good deal of calculation would be needed.
>A short loan of the equipment is possible....


Please stop trying to lend me stuff. Everything that I've ever
borrowed uses up space in my shed. ;-)

I also have a hand-held, digital 'scope. One of the clamp meters has
peak-hold -- I'd forgotten about that. It might do the trick.

Well, it'd tell me the current through the circuit. Which isn't
necessarily the same current that'll be drawn when the long wire is
replaced with a short one and a transistor switch.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
  #18  
Old November 5th 11, 11:53 AM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
Scotty[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Starter solenoid current?



"Paul Saccani" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:47:45 +1000, "Scotty" >
wrote:

>
>I'd be VERY surprised if it was over 10 Amps to be honest. a 4 mm2 cable.
>Seeing as a 4mm cable is really only capable of 30 Amps for a reasonably
>short time.
>
>Id be testing with an ammeter. 90% of ammeters have internal fuses
>protecting the device anyway.


That's a rather optimistic view of the effectiveness of the fuse. The
fuse is intended for personnel protection - they rarely protect the
meter from *high* currents - errant students demonstrate the art of
meter destruction to me at regular intervals.

They often blow the tracks away before the fuse blows, sometimes even
the internal shunt goes before the fuse does.

Cheers,
Paul Saccani
Perth, Western Australia.
><><><><><><>><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ><><><><><><><><><><


There should be HRC fuses in meters. They should blow well before the
tracks, should that is,

  #19  
Old November 5th 11, 12:16 PM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
PeterD
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Posts: 874
Default Starter solenoid current?

On 11/5/2011 7:53 AM, Scotty wrote:
>
>
> "Paul Saccani" wrote in message
> ...
>
> On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:47:45 +1000, "Scotty" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd be VERY surprised if it was over 10 Amps to be honest. a 4 mm2 cable.
>> Seeing as a 4mm cable is really only capable of 30 Amps for a reasonably
>> short time.
>>
>> Id be testing with an ammeter. 90% of ammeters have internal fuses
>> protecting the device anyway.

>
> That's a rather optimistic view of the effectiveness of the fuse. The
> fuse is intended for personnel protection - they rarely protect the
> meter from *high* currents - errant students demonstrate the art of
> meter destruction to me at regular intervals.
>
> They often blow the tracks away before the fuse blows, sometimes even
> the internal shunt goes before the fuse does.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Saccani
> Perth, Western Australia.
>> <><><><><><>><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><

>
> There should be HRC fuses in meters. They should blow well before the
> tracks, should that is,


Face it, when you pay $5 for a DVOM today (WalMart, Harbor Freight,
etc.) any fuse is a luxury.

--
I'm never going to grow up.
  #20  
Old November 5th 11, 12:19 PM posted to aus.cars,rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
PeterD
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default Starter solenoid current?

On 11/4/2011 10:21 PM, Paul Saccani wrote:

>
> Easiest way to find out is to stick a clamp meter on it. If you don't
> have one, as usual, I can offer to loan you one and you can decline
> the offer.


<BSEG> Careful someone may take you up on that!

>
> It also depends on what timescale you want to look at. As an
> inductive rather than resistive load, the current can have quite wild
> transients, but for average current, 3 to 10 A would be typical for a
> pre-engaged starter, and a clamp meter would be able to provide the
> average current no worries.
> ]


Many (better) clamp-on meters have a peak read feature that will save
the highest reading as well display the current value. Very useful for
seeing start-up surges.

> If you do want to know in more detail, and inductive probe and a
> storage oscilloscope and a good deal of calculation would be needed.
> A short loan of the equipment is possible....


Again, some DVOMs have RS-232 or other computer output that may allow
similar features.

Ah, but we're over testing, I think, the OP's problem!


--
I'm never going to grow up.
 




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