134a Refrigerant

"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
news
> Don't forget that the single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons
are
> volcanoes.

You are ignorant, or confused, or both.... or
just evil

Volcanos don't spew flourocarbons... you're
thinking of Rush Limbaugh, aren't you? Well,
megadittoes to you! Anyway, volcanos spew
HCl, or hydrochloric acid. This stuff is very
reactive and water-soluble and is purged
from the atmosphere readily. *Chlorinated*
fluorocarbons like R12, R22, Freon(tm) et al
have an atmospheric half-life of around 100
years... this is how they get up to the stratosphere
and are broken down by UV, releasing the chlorine
where it can do the most damage to the ozone
layer.

In other words, I urge everyone to *forget* that
volcanos are the 'single biggest source of
atmospheric fluorocarbons'... utter nonsense.
Don't be a ditto head... educate yourself.

http://www.al.noaa.gov/WWWHD/pubdocs...nt98/faq3.html
__
Steve
..

Notice, how our bleeding heart liberals have been quit, about the
volcano in Mexico? Knowing it could throw us into another Ice age, while
they've been ranting about global warming.
Volcanos are also how this planet makes water. If we'd waited for a
commit we'd look like Mars.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Don't forget that the single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons are
> volcanoes.

Hmm... I could pretend to be a boarder vigilante and steal it from
the mules.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Snow wrote:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tego ry=46094
>
> Snow... check out the shipping company...

Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.


Nathan W. Collier wrote:
>> actually, Now that I think about it, it is for a 30LB bottle.
>
>now thats a little better. i think i paid around $600 for the last 30 pound
>tank i bought. if you were paying $900 per pound i could only wonder how i
>could get in on it. :-)
>
--
Robb


Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Aerosols, carbon dioxide, sulphates, etc. but no known volcano appears
to either currently be or ever have spewed flourocarbons.

Matt Macchiarolo proclaimed:

> Don't forget that the single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons are
> volcanoes.
>
> "L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I actually feel a little guilty about the amount of freon I've let
>>escape. although they haven't convinced me that's responsible for our
>>ozone holes. That's just our natural tree's carbon dioxide change to the
>>ice age, that's been recorded over thirty times in our earth's natural
>>history.
>> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/
>>
>>"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>>
>>>I still have a small retail can of R-12 laying around my garage
>>>somewhere.
>>>I'm holding onto it until I can donate it to a museum...
>>>--
>>>Robb
>>>
>>>Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
>
>
>

It may be like my local Kragen counter personnel steering people
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.

JohnM wrote:
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.





OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......

1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.

Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.

2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.

I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.

I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......

Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb


Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1

Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are used
up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like mexico
are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just no
make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.




Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
>>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
>[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which can't
>> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
>
>It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal to
>use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
>substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood, R134
>for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work right
>on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
>R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy R12
>on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to you,
>or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top off a
>low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
>different sizes.
--
Robb


Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Volcanic eruptions do emit hydrogen chloride. But they also spew
out huge amounts of water vapor. Hydrogen chloride dissolves in water.
Most of the chlorine from an eruption never reaches the high
stratosphere where the ozone layer is, because it washes down in rain.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Lon wrote:
>
> Aerosols, carbon dioxide, sulphates, etc. but no known volcano appears
> to either currently be or ever have spewed flourocarbons.

"Dave Milne" > wrote in message
. uk...
> I'm sure volcanoes will feel responsible and penitent if we start
> starving...
> It's like throwing litter - just because a place is untidy, that doesn't
> give us an excuse to make it worse. It's part of treading lightly in my
> book.

but there is _no_ scientific evidence of refrigerant causing the depletion
of the ozone. in fact, the atomic weight of chlorine is heavier than air
making it nearly impossible for it to ever reach the ozone anyway. it all
boils down to money. when duponts patent expired on 12, suddenly it was
deemed "bad" for the environment.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com