Where does GM's Saturn cars fit in the picture ?

GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact for 2
years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and Olds was
finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM, Chevy,
Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn. Some of
the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of the
news and rumors floating around.

Doby

Doby added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...

> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time.
> In fact for 2 years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body
> but I didn't last and Olds was finally put to death. Now all of
> the news is about just keeping the GM, Chevy, Cadillac, and
> Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn. Some
> of the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of
> it in all of the news and rumors floating around.
>
Doby, I'm a little far removed from GM, but still is still a car
town and all 3 of the Detroit Three are similar. GM is arguably the
most complex throughout it's history, but by the cars I see on the
road - including when I look at them closely - I have to say that
they are WAY ahead of Ford in any measurable way including styling,
fuel economy, features, whatever customers want these days.
Unfortunately for me, my company, Chrysler, is dead last and has
nothing in it's product pipeline except the 2011 Grand Cherokee.

So, looking from afar at GM's brand lineup, I cannot for the life
of me believe they would actually shed Saturn now that it is
finally profitable and the cars look nice plus are good quality. I
do understand the need to stop canibalizing their own product with
these idiotic badge engineered vehicles, but ...

I guess my take is to save very little from Buick as it is akin to
"this IS your father's Buick" but I'd save much of what is new at
Pontiac and virtually all of Saturn. Where there is obvious
duplication, as in the Saturn Outlook and Buick Acadia, I'd keep
the Saturn and cancel the Buick. Likewise, as Pontiac is to GM what
Dodge is to Chrysler - it's styling and performance leader - why
dump it? Cadillac, of course, is rolling along just fine. Which
leaves Chevy, which I now think is beginning to break away from the
mold where all the cars somehow need to look like someone's vision
of what a Chevy should look like.

Saturn has the fewest dealers, and where GM is top heavy is that
they don't cross over between brands except when a store sells GMC
as well as some cars. Seems like the logical move would be to
combine some brands as part of an overall cut in the total number
of stores. This has been successful at Chrysler for decades, first
with Chrysler-Plymouth and now Chrysler-Jeep. Why not, for example,
Saturn-Pontiac? Not sure what to do with Buick as one can't put
them in the same showroom as Cadillac without dilluting the upscale
image, nor can one put Buick in with Chevy because they are so far
apart in market and price.

But, dump Saturn?!

--
Jerry, aka HP

"Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less: A Handbook for Slashing Gas
Prices and Solving Our Energy Crisis" - Newt Gingrich

I don't remember that OLDS was on a Saturn body, but they did use the Chevy
Malibu body the last few years until they died!


"Doby" > wrote in message
...
> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
> for 2
> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
> Olds was
> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
> Chevy,
> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
> Some of
> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
> the
> news and rumors floating around.
>
> Doby

Saturn may well end up as a turnkey sales/service/distribution system for a
number of 'makes' under a new or re-cycled name(s). Saab/Opel and maybe as a
longshot Vauxhall/Holden are prime candidates but under whom? Could this
route be China's entry into the US market? Will 'Saturn' be able to counter
Shanghai GM's takeover of Buick? And what of FIAT if the chrisler deal falls
flat as expected? What happens to everything in GM's bankruptcy
dis-solution? Who's on first?
Stay tuned - this site leads Automotive News by about a month for news of
what's really happening.
john

"Doby" > wrote in message
...
> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
> for 2
> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
> Olds was
> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
> Chevy,
> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
> Some of
> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
> the
> news and rumors floating around.
>
> Doby
>

with that in mind........


Investors want Saturn dealers

April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET
DETROIT -- An investor group called Telesto Ventures says it wants to
acquire Saturn's retail operations and provide dealers with vehicles from
General Motors through 2011 and from mostly overseas manufacturers
thereafter. A GM spokesman says the group's proposal is legitimate and "very
interesting."




"I can tell you this is one of the interested parties with Saturn, and
we have been working with them throughout this process," says spokesman
Steve Janisse. "There are other interested parties as well who we're working
with, but I can't speculate on where all this will go."

Telesto spokesman John Pappanastos says his group is in discussions
with several unidentified foreign manufacturers.

He says Telesto, which was formed specifically for the Saturn venture,
encompasses a private equity firm, Black Oak Partners LLC, of Oklahoma City,
and several other investors. It's unclear how much money is backing Telesto
and what automotive experience it has.

The products in the Saturn dealerships likely would have various brand
names and could be sold elsewhere, Pappanastos says. He says Telesto prefers
small, fuel-efficient vehicles.

"It's similar to a Best Buy model in that customers deal with Best Buy
because of the customer experience, not because they are the only place to
buy a Samsung or a Sony TV," Pappanastos says.











As of April 6, Saturn had 384 rooftops in the United States.
Pappanastos says the Telesto plans would save 12,000 to 15,000 retail jobs.


"Doby" > wrote in message
...
> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
> for 2
> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
> Olds was
> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
> Chevy,
> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
> Some of
> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
> the
> news and rumors floating around.
>
> Doby

and ofcourse this news from last month....


March 18, 2009 - 12:01 am ET
UPDATED: 3/18/09 9:25 a.m. ET

A group studying Saturn's possible spin-off from General Motors has
been approached by GM competitors, including foreign manufacturers, about
selling their cars under the Saturn brand, an adviser says.



Steve Girsky, long-time industry consultant who is leading GM's task
force, declined to name which automakers have talked to the group. He called
the inquiries "informal."

Key Saturn dealers pushed for a feasibility study after cash-strapped
GM announced last month that it would wind down or terminate the Saturn
brand after 2011. The move is part of the viability plan GM submitted in a
bid for an additional $16.6 billion in federal aid beyond the $13.4 billion
in U.S. loans keeping the company afloat.

Girsky said in an interview today that the task force is assessing
whether a spin-off could procure enough product and sell enough vehicles to
make it viable for the 400 Saturn dealers now operating.

The spin-off would offer car manufacturers an opportunity to build
vehicles in under-used domestic assembly plants or provide a ready-made U.S.
distribution network for their products, Girsky said.

The spin-off could count on Saturn's current vehicle lineup through
2011, Girsky said. Ideally, the new company would want to begin bringing in
additional product from GM or others before that time, he said.

They would all sell under the Saturn brand. To keep a family
resemblance for vehicles possibly coming from a variety of automakers, the
new company could have light design capability, he said.

The task force includes Saturn general manager Jill Lajdziak, four
Saturn dealers and former General Motors Acceptance Corp. CFO Sanjeev
Khatri, Girsky said. He said the group expects to complete its work by late
April.

Several carmakers already market vehicles made by competitors, Girsky
said. Chrysler LLC, for example, is making Volkswagen AG's Routan minivan.

Girsky said it is too early to seek potential investors in the
spin-off. He said GM probably would require dealers participating in the new
company to release GM legally for some of the costs of closing a brand.
State franchise laws can require automakers to buy back inventory and
compensate dealers for losses associated with discontinuing a brand.







"rob" > wrote in message
ng.com...
> with that in mind........
>
>
> Investors want Saturn dealers
>
> April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET
> DETROIT -- An investor group called Telesto Ventures says it wants to
> acquire Saturn's retail operations and provide dealers with vehicles from
> General Motors through 2011 and from mostly overseas manufacturers
> thereafter. A GM spokesman says the group's proposal is legitimate and
> "very interesting."
>
>
>
>
> "I can tell you this is one of the interested parties with Saturn,
> and we have been working with them throughout this process," says
> spokesman Steve Janisse. "There are other interested parties as well who
> we're working with, but I can't speculate on where all this will go."
>
> Telesto spokesman John Pappanastos says his group is in discussions
> with several unidentified foreign manufacturers.
>
> He says Telesto, which was formed specifically for the Saturn
> venture, encompasses a private equity firm, Black Oak Partners LLC, of
> Oklahoma City, and several other investors. It's unclear how much money is
> backing Telesto and what automotive experience it has.
>
> The products in the Saturn dealerships likely would have various
> brand names and could be sold elsewhere, Pappanastos says. He says Telesto
> prefers small, fuel-efficient vehicles.
>
> "It's similar to a Best Buy model in that customers deal with Best
> Buy because of the customer experience, not because they are the only
> place to buy a Samsung or a Sony TV," Pappanastos says.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As of April 6, Saturn had 384 rooftops in the United States.
> Pappanastos says the Telesto plans would save 12,000 to 15,000 retail
> jobs.
>
>
> "Doby" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
>> for 2
>> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
>> Olds was
>> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
>> Chevy,
>> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
>> Some of
>> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
>> the
>> news and rumors floating around.
>>
>> Doby
>
>

Just because we seem to have the franchise system based on manufacturer
channels nowadays is not necessarily any reason for that to continue, I
guess. I'm sure there were lots of dealers in years gone by who handled
models from a variety of manufacturers so whoever ends up with the Saturn
network could easily do that too. I remember some of the larger importers
in the 1950s and 60s handling mixtures like Rover, Fiat, Ferrari, Hillman,
Sunbeam, Morris, Austin, Triumph and MG all in a single operation so there
really shouldn't necessarily be a reason this couldn't happen again. On the
other hand, what brands are there now outside of China that could afford to
make its vehicles meet the restrictive US bumper, crash, and emissions
standards, especially when their sales would be very low? It would be
interesting to see who would provide warranties on some of these diverse
products and I also wonder what the resale/residual values of these suddenly
arriving new brands will be in the North American market.

Max

"John Bradley" > wrote in message
news
> Saturn may well end up as a turnkey sales/service/distribution system for
> a number of 'makes' under a new or re-cycled name(s). Saab/Opel and maybe
> as a longshot Vauxhall/Holden are prime candidates but under whom? Could
> this route be China's entry into the US market? Will 'Saturn' be able to
> counter Shanghai GM's takeover of Buick? And what of FIAT if the chrisler
> deal falls flat as expected? What happens to everything in GM's bankruptcy
> dis-solution? Who's on first?
> Stay tuned - this site leads Automotive News by about a month for news of
> what's really happening.
> john
>
> "Doby" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
>> for 2
>> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
>> Olds was
>> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
>> Chevy,
>> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
>> Some of
>> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
>> the
>> news and rumors floating around.
>>
>> Doby
>>
>
>

Good points all, Max. But build standards, robotics, j-i-t parts from
captive suppliers, CAD-CAM-CAP, etc, etc are all basically the same and
interchangable from Tchykland to Tianjin or Svergie to Szetchuan. The
manufacturing/testing equipment suppliers i meet with in China are all
english- and Chinese-proficient Eyou-ropeens. The Chinese development
philosophy is - pardon me - based on great leaps forward. China is
developing its own road congestion pricing schemes, high
kilometre-per-day/low cost infrastructure production techniques, intelligent
transportation systems, integrated multi-modal systems structure, and on and
on - all the 'things' discussed in the US and Canada, but implemented in
europe and china.
Basically, the NA manufacturers have lost everything to a newer, younger,
more agressive version of EC. An EC based on a completely post-WWII rebuilt
production-based economy and a soft sozialism. Now the aging europe is being
overtaken. And that is what the coming trade war is about - an expanded EC
versus a Greater Asia Prosperity Sphere.
j

"Max Magister" > wrote in message
g.com...
> Just because we seem to have the franchise system based on manufacturer
> channels nowadays is not necessarily any reason for that to continue, I
> guess. I'm sure there were lots of dealers in years gone by who handled
> models from a variety of manufacturers so whoever ends up with the Saturn
> network could easily do that too. I remember some of the larger importers
> in the 1950s and 60s handling mixtures like Rover, Fiat, Ferrari, Hillman,
> Sunbeam, Morris, Austin, Triumph and MG all in a single operation so there
> really shouldn't necessarily be a reason this couldn't happen again. On
> the other hand, what brands are there now outside of China that could
> afford to make its vehicles meet the restrictive US bumper, crash, and
> emissions standards, especially when their sales would be very low? It
> would be interesting to see who would provide warranties on some of these
> diverse products and I also wonder what the resale/residual values of
> these suddenly arriving new brands will be in the North American market.
>
> Max
>
> "John Bradley" > wrote in message
> news
>> Saturn may well end up as a turnkey sales/service/distribution system for
>> a number of 'makes' under a new or re-cycled name(s). Saab/Opel and maybe
>> as a longshot Vauxhall/Holden are prime candidates but under whom? Could
>> this route be China's entry into the US market? Will 'Saturn' be able to
>> counter Shanghai GM's takeover of Buick? And what of FIAT if the chrisler
>> deal falls flat as expected? What happens to everything in GM's
>> bankruptcy dis-solution? Who's on first?
>> Stay tuned - this site leads Automotive News by about a month for news of
>> what's really happening.
>> john
>>
>> "Doby" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> GM tried to move Oldsmobile into the Saturn company at one time. In fact
>>> for 2
>>> years, the Olds Cutlass was using the Saturn body but I didn't last and
>>> Olds was
>>> finally put to death. Now all of the news is about just keeping the GM,
>>> Chevy,
>>> Cadillac, and Buick, dropping the Pontiac but no mention of the Saturn.
>>> Some of
>>> the Saturn line are based on Buick, but still no mention of it in all of
>>> the
>>> news and rumors floating around.
>>>
>>> Doby
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>