Close Call!

From the discussion here, it sounds as if "part time" is better for going
uphill, and "full time" might be better for downhill. There is lots of ice
and snow outside, after a monster Colorado spring blizzard, but I don't have
a "full time" four wheel drive vehicle to try this theory out.

Earle

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> When in 4x4 'part time' you have the dubious pleasure of locking up all
> 4 wheels when the fronts lock.... Instant sideways slide or how to find
> the 'low side' without lockers.... Hense the need to stay off the
> brakes.
>
> Mike
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
> >
> > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
> > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly hampered
> > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard would
> > have.
> >
> > And, of course, all bets are off when on an icy incline.
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > > Well....
> > >
> > > The owners manual in 'both' of my Jeeps plainly states to 'stay off
the
> > > brakes and to use the gears' in slippery situations.
> > >
> > > I ice and snow drive off road all the time and have found that
> > > surprisingly the owners manual is correct. If you use the brakes, you
> > > will fast lose control and if you use neutral, you are 'out' of
control.
> > >
> > > In the above case, I would be using 4 low in 2nd or more likely 3rd
> > > gear. I have a 5 speed. If I couldn't hold control, then I would be
> > > taking a 'serious' look at my tires. You were in low by the sound of
> > > it. The 'part time' light means that.
> > >
> > > What are you running for rubber?
> > >
> > > Summer or 'all season' tires have no place on a mountain ravine trail
on
> > > ice unless you have chains on. Period. Been there, done that, got
the
> > > crap scared out of me when I had to do the 'exact' same thing as you
on
> > > a logging trail near Tahsis on Vancouver Island. If I used the
brakes,
> > > the front wheels locked and I slid to the cliff edge so I had to use
the
> > > emergency brake and low and neutral. I also had my wife and kid out
> > > watching. I had half worn all season tires on a Chevy 2 WD pickup
then.
> > >
> > > I think you have just reached the limit of the equipment, not that you
> > > really did anything wrong. You tried it all by the sounds of it... I
> > > sure never tried anything that steep in my Chevy again....
> > >
> > > Glad to hear you got out of it in one piece.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > >
> > > Stimpy wrote:
> > >
> > >>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to
play in
> > >>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up
several
> > >>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I
decided to
> > >>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from
that
> > >>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start
sliding as
> > >>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put
it in a
> > >>small ditch to stop.
> > >>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over
the
> > >>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get
back on
> > >>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on
the
> > >>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like
ice. I
> > >>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as
possible
> > >>using the hand brake and the compression.
> > >>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
shinny
> > >>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
embarrassed,
> > >>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except
my
> > >>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way
home on
> > >>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
> > >>
> > >>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
> > >>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
have
> > >>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in
the
> > >>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
FullTime
> > >>before trying to get it in 4LO.

I would be interested to try that too. I have put on a lot of local off
road runs to help show folks what their Jeep can and can't do in the
snow but have never had a 'full time' vs 'part time' test.

I am thinking you lose most of the engine braking effect with the full
time, but don't know.

Mike

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> From the discussion here, it sounds as if "part time" is better for going
> uphill, and "full time" might be better for downhill. There is lots of ice
> and snow outside, after a monster Colorado spring blizzard, but I don't have
> a "full time" four wheel drive vehicle to try this theory out.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When in 4x4 'part time' you have the dubious pleasure of locking up all
> > 4 wheels when the fronts lock.... Instant sideways slide or how to find
> > the 'low side' without lockers.... Hense the need to stay off the
> > brakes.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >
> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly hampered
> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard would
> > > have.
> > >
> > > And, of course, all bets are off when on an icy incline.
> > >
> > > Mike Romain wrote:
> > > > Well....
> > > >
> > > > The owners manual in 'both' of my Jeeps plainly states to 'stay off
> the
> > > > brakes and to use the gears' in slippery situations.
> > > >
> > > > I ice and snow drive off road all the time and have found that
> > > > surprisingly the owners manual is correct. If you use the brakes, you
> > > > will fast lose control and if you use neutral, you are 'out' of
> control.
> > > >
> > > > In the above case, I would be using 4 low in 2nd or more likely 3rd
> > > > gear. I have a 5 speed. If I couldn't hold control, then I would be
> > > > taking a 'serious' look at my tires. You were in low by the sound of
> > > > it. The 'part time' light means that.
> > > >
> > > > What are you running for rubber?
> > > >
> > > > Summer or 'all season' tires have no place on a mountain ravine trail
> on
> > > > ice unless you have chains on. Period. Been there, done that, got
> the
> > > > crap scared out of me when I had to do the 'exact' same thing as you
> on
> > > > a logging trail near Tahsis on Vancouver Island. If I used the
> brakes,
> > > > the front wheels locked and I slid to the cliff edge so I had to use
> the
> > > > emergency brake and low and neutral. I also had my wife and kid out
> > > > watching. I had half worn all season tires on a Chevy 2 WD pickup
> then.
> > > >
> > > > I think you have just reached the limit of the equipment, not that you
> > > > really did anything wrong. You tried it all by the sounds of it... I
> > > > sure never tried anything that steep in my Chevy again....
> > > >
> > > > Glad to hear you got out of it in one piece.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > > >
> > > > Stimpy wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to
> play in
> > > >>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up
> several
> > > >>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I
> decided to
> > > >>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from
> that
> > > >>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start
> sliding as
> > > >>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put
> it in a
> > > >>small ditch to stop.
> > > >>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over
> the
> > > >>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get
> back on
> > > >>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on
> the
> > > >>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like
> ice. I
> > > >>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as
> possible
> > > >>using the hand brake and the compression.
> > > >>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
> shinny
> > > >>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
> embarrassed,
> > > >>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except
> my
> > > >>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way
> home on
> > > >>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
> > > >>
> > > >>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
> > > >>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
> have
> > > >>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in
> the
> > > >>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
> FullTime
> > > >>before trying to get it in 4LO.

An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
automatic still has a LOT.

Tom

Lee Ayrton wrote:
> You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
> on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly hampered
> by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard would
> have.
>

That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
We do these year round.

Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.

If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels and
start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.

Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.

Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
control.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Vince Hodgson wrote:
>
> 0K, here's the thing....
> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear and
> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
> fast enough.
>
> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
> control anymore.
>
> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
> regain control with the brake peddle.
>
> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down a
> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > automatic still has a LOT.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly hampered
> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard would
> > > have.
> > >
> >

Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
any time soon though.

Earle

"Vince Hodgson" > wrote in message
.. .
> 0K, here's the thing....
> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
and
> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
> fast enough.
>
> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
> control anymore.
>
> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
> regain control with the brake peddle.
>
> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
a
> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > automatic still has a LOT.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
control
> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
hampered
> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
would
> > > have.
> > >
> >
>
>

I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by shifting
to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.

I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law enforcement
officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not by
someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.

Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as you
put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.

Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are trying
to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.

Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn. Shift
into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
better control of your vehicle.

Spdloader

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> We do these year round.
>
> Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
> control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>
> If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
> low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels and
> start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>
> Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>
> Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> control.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>
>> 0K, here's the thing....
>> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>> and
>> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>> fast enough.
>>
>> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not
>> in
>> control anymore.
>>
>> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>> regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>> a
>> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>> > automatic still has a LOT.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>> > > control
>> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>> > > hampered
>> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>> > > would
>> > > have.
>> > >
>> >

Ditto.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Well....
>
> The owners manual in 'both' of my Jeeps plainly states to 'stay off the
> brakes and to use the gears' in slippery situations.
>
> I ice and snow drive off road all the time and have found that
> surprisingly the owners manual is correct. If you use the brakes, you
> will fast lose control and if you use neutral, you are 'out' of control.
>
> In the above case, I would be using 4 low in 2nd or more likely 3rd
> gear. I have a 5 speed. If I couldn't hold control, then I would be
> taking a 'serious' look at my tires. You were in low by the sound of
> it. The 'part time' light means that.
>
> What are you running for rubber?
>
> Summer or 'all season' tires have no place on a mountain ravine trail on
> ice unless you have chains on. Period. Been there, done that, got the
> crap scared out of me when I had to do the 'exact' same thing as you on
> a logging trail near Tahsis on Vancouver Island. If I used the brakes,
> the front wheels locked and I slid to the cliff edge so I had to use the
> emergency brake and low and neutral. I also had my wife and kid out
> watching. I had half worn all season tires on a Chevy 2 WD pickup then.
>
> I think you have just reached the limit of the equipment, not that you
> really did anything wrong. You tried it all by the sounds of it... I
> sure never tried anything that steep in my Chevy again....
>
> Glad to hear you got out of it in one piece.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Shifting into neutral is against the law at here in Kalifornia.
Even depressing the clutch is a panic symptom that'll quickly lead to
being totaling out of control!
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Spdloader wrote:
>
> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by shifting
> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>
> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law enforcement
> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not by
> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>
> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as you
> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>
> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are trying
> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>
> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn. Shift
> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> better control of your vehicle.
>
> Spdloader

Was that in Georgia? ;^)

(Trucker I used to know called neutral downhill with a load, "Georgia
overdrive".)

Earle

"Spdloader" > wrote in message
m...
> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by shifting
> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>
> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
enforcement
> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not by
> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>
> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
you
> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>
> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are trying
> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>
> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
Shift
> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> better control of your vehicle.
>
> Spdloader
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > We do these year round.
> >
> > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
> > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> >
> > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
> > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels and
> > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> >
> > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> >
> > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > control.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> >
> > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> >>
> >> 0K, here's the thing....
> >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
gear
> >> and
> >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
turning
> >> fast enough.
> >>
> >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not
> >> in
> >> control anymore.
> >>
> >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
brakes.
> >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
> >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> >>
> >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
down
> >> a
> >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
> >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> >> > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
> >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> >> >
> >> > Tom
> >> >
> >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> >> > > control
> >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> >> > > hampered
> >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> >> > > would
> >> > > have.
> >> > >
> >> >
>
>

That's called Mexican overdrive out here, it's still against the
law.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> Was that in Georgia? ;^)
>
> (Trucker I used to know called neutral downhill with a load, "Georgia
> overdrive".)
>
> Earle