Close Call!

You miss a key parameter here, Earle. 4WD provides 4 traction points
for "go", it does squat all for "whoa" - the brakes provide 4 wheel
energy for that little detail. All the 4WD does is to help transfer
whatever resistance it can find to the engine. Allowing any wheel or
wheels to roll means that the rolling wheel has the potential to
supply at least SOME traction available to either slow or steer that
4-pt. hockey puck you are riding. If that rolling wheel has enough
traction to allow you to steer and regain control, then it can then be
used via brakes, etc. to attempt to slow the vehicle which is, by
definition, already moving. Once moving, 4WD does nothing for
stopping unless at least some of the wheels are rolling, indicating
that there is some additional friction available to be applied to
braking - by whatwver means you like.

That's all well and good for theory but like you, I doubt the average
driver, or even the highly skilled ones, has reaction times and
situational awareness enough to do much besides hold on when it's as
slick as we seem to be talking.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:54:09 UTC "Earle Horton"
> wrote:

> Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit
> that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
> precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
> recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
> because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
> control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
> the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
> done it, but it's kind of scary.
>
> I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
> with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
> better practice on the easy stuff first.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Spdloader wrote:
> > >
> > > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
> second
> > > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
> down
> > > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
> you'll
> > > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > > >
> >
> > Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> > part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
> >
> > When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> > 'CANNOT' rotate!
> >
> > When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> > with the proportioning valve.
> >
> > You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> > the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> > loses traction.
> >
> > If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> > wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> > control.
> >
> > You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> > get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
> >
> > It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
>
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***


--
Will Honea

I will agree. I have been in situations where all that would work was
the hand brake and 'really' slow so I still had steering while having
the door open so I could jump.....

Mike

Stimpy wrote:
>
> Hmmm... what a busy thread! It has been educational... (Now that I remember
> what I did for 45 minutes... to go 3/4 of a mile,... I had time to
> experiment.) I tend to agree with whoever said 4 wheel Part Time up hill in
> snow, 4 wheel full time down hill. and definitely getting studs next year.
> Last year I drove around after a good storm on 6-8 inches of fresh virgin
> snow on some paved roads and it drove better uphill, stopping and turning
> sharp curves after I put it in 4 Wheel Part Time. In that case it was NOT
> slick and icy.
> So I assumed 4 part time would work on this excursion as mentioned. The
> locking of both axels in 4 part time isn't what happened though.
> Only the front end locked up when applying the brakes, if I applied too much
> pressure with the hand brake, only the back slid. The axels never locked
> together (never tried 4 full time, because of the luck I had in my earlier
> excursion mentioned above)
> No matter what gear combination I tried, 4 lo, hi part, full, (automatic
> tranny) I gained too much speed and would eventually have had to apply the
> brakes, to no avail, so hence my creeping at a walking pace using the hand
> brake (could control pressure better)
> So my conclusion is, aside from not having the right tires, etc. and should
> never have been there in the first place, I did the right thing in creeping
> along ata snails pace using the hand brake.
> "Frank-The-Tank" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Stimpy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > : OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to
> > play
> > in
> > : the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up several
> > : times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I
> > decided
> > to
> > : turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from
> > that
> > : point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start sliding
> > as
> > : soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put it
> > in
> > a
> > : small ditch to stop.
> > : I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over the
> > : ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get
> > back
> > on
> > : the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on the
> > : road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like ice.
> > I
> > : couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as
> > possible
> > : using the hand brake and the compression.
> > : After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
> > shinny
> > : new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
> > embarrassed,
> > : me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except
> > my
> > : ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way
> > home
> > on
> > : dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
> > :
> > : OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
> > : experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
> > have
> > : the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in the
> > : right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
> > FullTime
> > : before trying to get it in 4LO.
> > :
> > :
> >
> > It is really unfortunate that there are not more opinions on this matter ;
> > P
> >
> >

Heh, according to the statistics people, jumping is the last, most fatal
option. That is why seat belts are installed in motor vehicles--to keep the
people in the car. That said, sometimes it works.

Earle

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> I will agree. I have been in situations where all that would work was
> the hand brake and 'really' slow so I still had steering while having
> the door open so I could jump.....
>
> Mike
>
> Stimpy wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm... what a busy thread! It has been educational... (Now that I
remember
> > what I did for 45 minutes... to go 3/4 of a mile,... I had time to
> > experiment.) I tend to agree with whoever said 4 wheel Part Time up
hill in
> > snow, 4 wheel full time down hill. and definitely getting studs next
year.
> > Last year I drove around after a good storm on 6-8 inches of fresh
virgin
> > snow on some paved roads and it drove better uphill, stopping and
turning
> > sharp curves after I put it in 4 Wheel Part Time. In that case it was
NOT
> > slick and icy.
> > So I assumed 4 part time would work on this excursion as mentioned. The
> > locking of both axels in 4 part time isn't what happened though.
> > Only the front end locked up when applying the brakes, if I applied too
much
> > pressure with the hand brake, only the back slid. The axels never locked
> > together (never tried 4 full time, because of the luck I had in my
earlier
> > excursion mentioned above)
> > No matter what gear combination I tried, 4 lo, hi part, full, (automatic
> > tranny) I gained too much speed and would eventually have had to apply
the
> > brakes, to no avail, so hence my creeping at a walking pace using the
hand
> > brake (could control pressure better)
> > So my conclusion is, aside from not having the right tires, etc. and
should
> > never have been there in the first place, I did the right thing in
creeping
> > along ata snails pace using the hand brake.
> > "Frank-The-Tank" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Stimpy" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > : OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to
> > > play
> > > in
> > > : the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up
several
> > > : times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I
> > > decided
> > > to
> > > : turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from
> > > that
> > > : point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start
sliding
> > > as
> > > : soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put
it
> > > in
> > > a
> > > : small ditch to stop.
> > > : I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over
the
> > > : ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get
> > > back
> > > on
> > > : the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on
the
> > > : road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like
ice.
> > > I
> > > : couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as
> > > possible
> > > : using the hand brake and the compression.
> > > : After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
> > > shinny
> > > : new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
> > > embarrassed,
> > > : me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage
except
> > > my
> > > : ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way
> > > home
> > > on
> > > : dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
> > > :
> > > : OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
> > > : experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO?
(I
> > > have
> > > : the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in
the
> > > : right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
> > > FullTime
> > > : before trying to get it in 4LO.
> > > :
> > > :
> > >
> > > It is really unfortunate that there are not more opinions on this
matter ;
> > > P
> > >
> > >

If I am sliding at 1/2 mile an hour toward that cliff and it just isn't
going to pull out, well..... Going over wasn't a survivable option.

Screw the seat belt, I have the door open... Only ever had to do that
twice, both times in the Canadian Rockies and both in the last 2wd truck
we owned before the Jeep.... That convinced us we needed a real 4x4 to
get out where we like to explore.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> Heh, according to the statistics people, jumping is the last, most fatal
> option. That is why seat belts are installed in motor vehicles--to keep the
> people in the car. That said, sometimes it works.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I will agree. I have been in situations where all that would work was
> > the hand brake and 'really' slow so I still had steering while having
> > the door open so I could jump.....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Stimpy wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm... what a busy thread! It has been educational... (Now that I
> remember
> > > what I did for 45 minutes... to go 3/4 of a mile,... I had time to
> > > experiment.) I tend to agree with whoever said 4 wheel Part Time up
> hill in
> > > snow, 4 wheel full time down hill. and definitely getting studs next
> year.
> > > Last year I drove around after a good storm on 6-8 inches of fresh
> virgin
> > > snow on some paved roads and it drove better uphill, stopping and
> turning
> > > sharp curves after I put it in 4 Wheel Part Time. In that case it was
> NOT
> > > slick and icy.
> > > So I assumed 4 part time would work on this excursion as mentioned. The
> > > locking of both axels in 4 part time isn't what happened though.
> > > Only the front end locked up when applying the brakes, if I applied too
> much
> > > pressure with the hand brake, only the back slid. The axels never locked
> > > together (never tried 4 full time, because of the luck I had in my
> earlier
> > > excursion mentioned above)
> > > No matter what gear combination I tried, 4 lo, hi part, full, (automatic
> > > tranny) I gained too much speed and would eventually have had to apply
> the
> > > brakes, to no avail, so hence my creeping at a walking pace using the
> hand
> > > brake (could control pressure better)
> > > So my conclusion is, aside from not having the right tires, etc. and
> should
> > > never have been there in the first place, I did the right thing in
> creeping
> > > along ata snails pace using the hand brake.
> > > "Frank-The-Tank" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Stimpy" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > : OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to
> > > > play
> > > > in
> > > > : the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up
> several
> > > > : times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I
> > > > decided
> > > > to
> > > > : turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from
> > > > that
> > > > : point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start
> sliding
> > > > as
> > > > : soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put
> it
> > > > in
> > > > a
> > > > : small ditch to stop.
> > > > : I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over
> the
> > > > : ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get
> > > > back
> > > > on
> > > > : the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on
> the
> > > > : road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like
> ice.
> > > > I
> > > > : couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as
> > > > possible
> > > > : using the hand brake and the compression.
> > > > : After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
> > > > shinny
> > > > : new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
> > > > embarrassed,
> > > > : me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage
> except
> > > > my
> > > > : ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way
> > > > home
> > > > on
> > > > : dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
> > > > :
> > > > : OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
> > > > : experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO?
> (I
> > > > have
> > > > : the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in
> the
> > > > : right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
> > > > FullTime
> > > > : before trying to get it in 4LO.
> > > > :
> > > > :
> > > >
> > > > It is really unfortunate that there are not more opinions on this
> matter ;
> > > > P
> > > >
> > > >

Whomever your teacher was never drove on ice very much. And no, engine
braking is a plot spread by the body shop and tow truck mafia to lure
the inexperienced.



4X4PLAY proclaimed:

> If you were in 4low the light on the dash should read part time...
> I was always taught that if you are in neutral you are out of control...
> Isn't the best way down supposed to be with engine compression, no brakes
> and no clutch??
>
> Jeff
> "Lon" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>Ayup, driving stick shifts in areas where icy bridges, shaded corners,
>>etc. exist, I'd always keep a foot right on the clutch ready to de-clutch
>>immediately try to get a wheel to start gaining a few micro-ounces of
>>traction.
>>
>>philthy proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>you would not believe how much a vehicle recovers when putting it into
>>>neutral
>>>as it is sliding
>>>
>>>Stimpy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to play
>>>>in
>>>>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up several
>>>>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I decided
>>>>to
>>>>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from that
>>>>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start sliding
>>>>as
>>>>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put it
>>>>in a
>>>>small ditch to stop.
>>>>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over the
>>>>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get back
>>>>on
>>>>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on the
>>>>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like ice.
>>>>I
>>>>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as possible
>>>>using the hand brake and the compression.
>>>>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
>>>>shinny
>>>>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
>>>>embarrassed,
>>>>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except my
>>>>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way home
>>>>on
>>>>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
>>>>
>>>>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
>>>>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
>>>>have
>>>>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in the
>>>>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
>>>>FullTime
>>>>before trying to get it in 4LO.
>>>
>

I'd guess it is theoretically true with the odds of being able to match
instantaneous engine speed to the slip speed being roughly equal to
those of being able to flap your arms enough to lift the vehicle into
the air to recover.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
> opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
> degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
> assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
> any time soon though.
>
> Earle
>
> "Vince Hodgson" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>
> and
>
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>
> a
>
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>
> control
>
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>
> hampered
>
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>
> would
>
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Good thing to do for anyone wanting to drive on ice and snow that also
desires wrinkle free fenders. Parking lots work as long as they don't
have any curbs or posts. Both beat high speed skidpad training where a
mistake tends to have somewhat more awe inspiring consequences.



Earle Horton proclaimed:

> The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
> It's fun to watch.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
>>decent.
>>
>>Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
>>control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>>
>>What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
>>way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
>>XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>>
>>What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
>>Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
>>rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>>
>>As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
>>'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
>>Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
>>cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
>>corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
>>front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
>>can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
>>ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
>>they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>>
>>As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
>>totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
>>The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
>>control.
>>
>>I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
>>control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
>>bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>>
>>I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
>>all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
>>second still works best.
>>
>>I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
>>and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
>>happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
>>learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>Spdloader wrote:
>>
>>>I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>
> shifting
>
>>>to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>>
>>>I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>
> enforcement
>
>>>officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>
> by
>
>>>someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>>
>>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>
> you
>
>>>put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>>
>>>Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>
> trying
>
>>>to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>>
>>>Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>>>intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>
> Shift
>
>>>into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>>>better control of your vehicle.
>>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>>>>We do these year round.
>>>>
>>>>Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
>
> keep
>
>>>>control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>>>>break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>>>>
>>>>If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>>>>wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
>
> 3rd
>
>>>>low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>
> and
>
>>>>start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>>>>the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>>>>
>>>>Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>>>>
>>>>Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>>>>state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>>>>control.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>0K, here's the thing....
>>>>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>
> gear
>
>>>>>and
>>>>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>
> turning
>
>>>>>fast enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>
> not
>
>>>>>in
>>>>>control anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>
> brakes.
>
>>>>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>
> to
>
>>>>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>>>>
>>>>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>
> down
>
>>>>>a
>>>>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
>
> or
>
>>>>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> wrote in message
legroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>
> low
>
>>>>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>>>>>>>control
>>>>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>>>>>>>hampered
>>>>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>

Mike Romain proclaimed:

> Jeep should offer a course in how to handle your new 4x4. Land Rover
> here in Canada does. I have been out with their factory team in my CJ7
> showing them around some new challenges in the area we do day trips in.
> I even had their newspaper reporter out with us on one clean up trip I
> was the liaison on. He blasted the LR drivers for their poor showing.
> He said he was on a great clean up trip..... with a bunch of Jeepers!
> LOL!
>
> 4x4's handle totally different than any other vehicle, especially in
> 'part time' with the front and rear differentials locked together. The
> brakes go insane. It takes learning to get comfortable with that 5-10
> mph you need to be moving to hold control. You cannot safely stop on a
> icy decent, you just have to be able to control it to the bottom. Most
> times it is 'to stop, hit tree or snowbank', otherwise aim good.... ;-)
>
> Rear wheel drives handle a certain way and front wheel drives handle
> totally different.
>
> Empty parking lots come first snow is the way to go to learn or a nice
> local sand pit area like we used to have.
>
> Mike
>
> Earle Horton wrote:
>
>>The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
>>It's fun to watch.
>>
>>Earle
>>
>>"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
>>>decent.
>>>
>>>Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
>>>control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>>>
>>>What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
>>>way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
>>>XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>>>
>>>What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
>>>Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
>>>rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>>>
>>>As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
>>>'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
>>>Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
>>>cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
>>>corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
>>>front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
>>>can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
>>>ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
>>>they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>>>
>>>As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
>>>totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
>>>The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
>>>control.
>>>
>>>I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
>>>control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
>>>bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>>>
>>>I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
>>>all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
>>>second still works best.
>>>
>>>I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
>>>and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
>>>happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
>>>learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Spdloader wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>>
>>shifting
>>
>>>>to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>>>
>>>>I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>>
>>enforcement
>>
>>>>officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>>
>>by
>>
>>>>someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>>
>>you
>>
>>>>put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>>>
>>>>Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>>
>>trying
>>
>>>>to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>>>
>>>>Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>>>>intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>>
>>Shift
>>
>>>>into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>>>>better control of your vehicle.
>>>>
>>>>Spdloader
>>>>
>>>>"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>>>>>We do these year round.
>>>>>
>>>>>Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
>>
>>keep
>>
>>>>>control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>>>>>break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>>>>>wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
>>
>>3rd
>>
>>>>>low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>>start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>>>>>the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>>>>>
>>>>>Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>>>>>
>>>>>Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>>>>>state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>>>>>control.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>>
>>>>>Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>0K, here's the thing....
>>>>>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>>
>>gear
>>
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>>
>>turning
>>
>>>>>>fast enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>>
>>not
>>
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>control anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>>
>>brakes.
>>
>>>>>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>>
>>to
>>
>>>>>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>>
>>down
>>
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
>>
>>or
>>
>>>>>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> wrote in message
glegroups.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>>
>>low
>>
>>>>>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>>>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>>>>>>>>control
>>>>>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>>>>>>>>hampered
>>>>>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>have.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>