What I want vs. what the reality could support

dizzy > wrote:
>AD wrote:
>
>>Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
>>all american aversion to diesels
>>stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
>Yes, there's also the poor performance. They were slow. Of course,
>in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
>decent levels of HP.

Much of the American aversion to diesels stems from public perception
based on the horrible junk diesel engines that the American car manufacturers
came up with in the seventies.

Some of these were really dreadful. There were reworked tractor engine
designs with enormous amounts of inertia. And then there was the Oldsmobile
engine that was a reworked gasoline engine block that was totally unable to
handle the high compression it was asked to handle.

These cars were all just so awful that, decades later, Americans still won't
even think about diesels.

>Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
>performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.

Try one of the BMW diesels. They're not like you'd expect at all. However,
BMW can't sell the damn things in the US because Americans won't buy diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 25 �нв, 14:58, Dean Dark > wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 04:07:44 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:
> >> >IIRC the Vitesse had a lethal flaw, whereby in hard cornering the outside
> >> >rear wheel would fold under the car.
>
> >> That would only happen if you snapped off the throttle in mid-corner,
> >> which no capable driver would do. Â*It's the same kind of thinking as
> >> the people who believe that the Porsche 911 has a "fatal flaw" because
> >> it will spin out if you do the same thing.
>
> >In the best Homer Simpson voice: "Umm, the rear engine layout + RWD...
> >massive weight resting on the rear axle. I love oversteer"
>
> ... and that is *exactly* the kind of misguided 'Homer Simpson' type
> of thinking that I was talking about. Â*Believe it or not, there are
> many people out there who think that understeer is A Good Thing.

Yes, I believe you, judging by the fact that there are few affordable
rear wheel drivers
these days and most of the surviving ones have the engine in front.

On 25 �нв, 14:58, Dean Dark > wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 04:07:44 -0800 (PST), AD > wrote:
> >> >IIRC the Vitesse had a lethal flaw, whereby in hard cornering the outside
> >> >rear wheel would fold under the car.
>
> >> That would only happen if you snapped off the throttle in mid-corner,
> >> which no capable driver would do. Â*It's the same kind of thinking as
> >> the people who believe that the Porsche 911 has a "fatal flaw" because
> >> it will spin out if you do the same thing.
>
> >In the best Homer Simpson voice: "Umm, the rear engine layout + RWD...
> >massive weight resting on the rear axle. I love oversteer"
>
> ... and that is *exactly* the kind of misguided 'Homer Simpson' type
> of thinking that I was talking about. Â*Believe it or not, there are
> many people out there who think that understeer is A Good Thing.

Yes, I believe you, judging by the fact that there are few affordable
rear wheel drivers
these days and most of the surviving ones have the engine in front.

On 26 �нв, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> dizzy > wrote:
> >AD wrote:
>
> >>Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
> >>all american aversion to diesels
> >>stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> >Yes, there's also the poor performance. Â*They were slow. Â*Of course,
> >in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> >decent levels of HP. Â*
>
> Much of the American aversion to diesels stems from public perception
> based on the horrible junk diesel engines that the American car manufacturers
> came up with in the seventies.
>
> Some of these were really dreadful. Â*There were reworked tractor engine
> designs with enormous amounts of inertia. Â*And then there was the Oldsmobile
> engine that was a reworked gasoline engine block that was totally unable to
> handle the high compression it was asked to handle.
>
> These cars were all just so awful that, decades later, Americans still won't
> even think about diesels.
>
> >Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> >performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> Try one of the BMW diesels. Â*They're not like you'd expect at all. Â*However,
> BMW can't sell the damn things in the US because Americans won't buy diesels.

because the big three tried to sell them tractors in disguise
30something years ago...
it kind of makes sense

that and the pricing of the bmw 335d, unavailability of 330d, and the
gearing of the
refineries in the states which in turn could stem from the freeway-
legal tractor sale fiasco of the 70s,

let me know if the picture still misses any pieces

On 26 �нв, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> dizzy > wrote:
> >AD wrote:
>
> >>Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
> >>all american aversion to diesels
> >>stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> >Yes, there's also the poor performance. Â*They were slow. Â*Of course,
> >in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> >decent levels of HP. Â*
>
> Much of the American aversion to diesels stems from public perception
> based on the horrible junk diesel engines that the American car manufacturers
> came up with in the seventies.
>
> Some of these were really dreadful. Â*There were reworked tractor engine
> designs with enormous amounts of inertia. Â*And then there was the Oldsmobile
> engine that was a reworked gasoline engine block that was totally unable to
> handle the high compression it was asked to handle.
>
> These cars were all just so awful that, decades later, Americans still won't
> even think about diesels.
>
> >Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> >performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> Try one of the BMW diesels. Â*They're not like you'd expect at all. Â*However,
> BMW can't sell the damn things in the US because Americans won't buy diesels.

because the big three tried to sell them tractors in disguise
30something years ago...
it kind of makes sense

that and the pricing of the bmw 335d, unavailability of 330d, and the
gearing of the
refineries in the states which in turn could stem from the freeway-
legal tractor sale fiasco of the 70s,

let me know if the picture still misses any pieces

On Jan 26, 5:52Â*am, AD > wrote:
> On 26 �нв, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > dizzy > wrote:
> > >AD wrote:
>
> > >>Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
> > >>all american aversion to diesels
> > >>stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> > >Yes, there's also the poor performance. Â*They were slow. Â*Of course,
> > >in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> > >decent levels of HP. Â*
>
> > Much of the American aversion to diesels stems from public perception
> > based on the horrible junk diesel engines that the American car manufacturers
> > came up with in the seventies.
>
> > Some of these were really dreadful. Â*There were reworked tractor engine
> > designs with enormous amounts of inertia. Â*And then there was the Oldsmobile
> > engine that was a reworked gasoline engine block that was totally unable to
> > handle the high compression it was asked to handle.
>
> > These cars were all just so awful that, decades later, Americans still won't
> > even think about diesels.
>
> > >Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> > >performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> > Try one of the BMW diesels. Â*They're not like you'd expect at all. Â*However,
> > BMW can't sell the damn things in the US because Americans won't buy diesels.
>
> because the big three tried to sell them tractors in disguise
> 30something years ago...
> it kind of makes sense
>
> that and the pricing of the bmw 335d, unavailability of 330d, and the
> gearing of the
> refineries in the states which in turn could stem from the freeway-
> legal tractor sale fiasco of the 70s,
>
> let me know if the picture still misses any pieces- Hide quoted text -
>
One thing not raised or that I might have missed is many American gas
stations do not sell diesel and only have gasoline pumps. For example,
in my area, arguably the cheapest gas is usually found at Costco.
Costco only sells regular and premium gasoline. No diesel. This lack
of infrastructure, combined with the previously mentioned negative
points - smelly, dirty, loud, slow - all combine to bias diesel gas.

However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....

On Jan 26, 5:52Â*am, AD > wrote:
> On 26 �нв, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > dizzy > wrote:
> > >AD wrote:
>
> > >>Aside from the refineries not tuned for equal gas/diesel output the
> > >>all american aversion to diesels
> > >>stems from smell and rough idle or there is more to it than that?
>
> > >Yes, there's also the poor performance. Â*They were slow. Â*Of course,
> > >in recent years that has changed some, and you can get them with
> > >decent levels of HP. Â*
>
> > Much of the American aversion to diesels stems from public perception
> > based on the horrible junk diesel engines that the American car manufacturers
> > came up with in the seventies.
>
> > Some of these were really dreadful. Â*There were reworked tractor engine
> > designs with enormous amounts of inertia. Â*And then there was the Oldsmobile
> > engine that was a reworked gasoline engine block that was totally unable to
> > handle the high compression it was asked to handle.
>
> > These cars were all just so awful that, decades later, Americans still won't
> > even think about diesels.
>
> > >Even now, the low-spinning, "loads of torque down low and less up top"
> > >performance is undesirable, at least from my perspective.
>
> > Try one of the BMW diesels. Â*They're not like you'd expect at all. Â*However,
> > BMW can't sell the damn things in the US because Americans won't buy diesels.
>
> because the big three tried to sell them tractors in disguise
> 30something years ago...
> it kind of makes sense
>
> that and the pricing of the bmw 335d, unavailability of 330d, and the
> gearing of the
> refineries in the states which in turn could stem from the freeway-
> legal tractor sale fiasco of the 70s,
>
> let me know if the picture still misses any pieces- Hide quoted text -
>
One thing not raised or that I might have missed is many American gas
stations do not sell diesel and only have gasoline pumps. For example,
in my area, arguably the cheapest gas is usually found at Costco.
Costco only sells regular and premium gasoline. No diesel. This lack
of infrastructure, combined with the previously mentioned negative
points - smelly, dirty, loud, slow - all combine to bias diesel gas.

However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....

That 335d is a
> sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
> offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
> liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
> Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....

Actually, the 123d is a 2.0 litre

That 335d is a
> sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny. Similarly, BMW
> offers a nice 1 Series 4 door hatchback in Europe with either a 2.0
> liter(120d) or 2.3liter (123d) diesel that suppose to be the bomb.
> Alas, its not available in the US - how short sighted....

Actually, the 123d is a 2.0 litre

"bfd" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 5:52 am, AD > wrote:
> On 26 ???, 15:18, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
SNIP

> However, that might be changing and the Euro car mfrs are leading the
way. The latest diesel offerings from BMW, MB, Audi and VW are all
coming out with fast, quiet and efficient diesel cars. That 335d is a
sweet car. Too bad it doesn't have a manual tranny.

Well a manual transmission might have been desirable on a diesel when
automatics were three speed, wasted lots of energy in the torque converter
and you could get substantially better performance [and economy] out of a
four or preferably five speed manual*.

Nowadays BMW autos are 6 or even 8 speed and for a diesel it will be a rare
driver, if any, who could do better in a manual.

My first two 7 series were 5 speed manual, however they became rarer (735il
only on E32) and then non existent (E38), so my last three have all been
auto (4 speed, 5 speed switchable and now steptronic).






* my last two cars before BMW's were Rover SD1's. These both had excellent
5sp manuals. The auto was a rubbish 3sp unit, which thrashed the nuts out
of the engine at speed [literally if you unwary] and in which top was the
same ratio as 4th in the manual