Falacy of the Electric Car

On Oct 30, 11:53*pm, elmer > wrote:

> It takes the same amount of energy to move x vehicle regardless of that
> form of energy.

Absolute nonsense.

Different sources of mechanical energy have various efficiencies in
converting fuel to energy. Further, different fuel sources have
varying costs in obtaining and distributing the fuel. For example,
they say making ethanol uses more energy than it saves in gasoline.

New technologies change the energy efficiency. Automobile engines are
much more efficient than years ago.

> If one tenth of the vehicles become electric and plug in to recharge,
> after a long commute, on a hot August day, there is going to be a brown
> out and possibly a collapse of the grid.

As others correctly pointed out, electric cars would get charged late
overnight when power consumption is much lower and there is idle
generating and grid capacity.

This will have no choice but to go nuclear to meet current electric
demand, let alone new demands. Fossile fuels are finite, and far too
much comes from places run by whack-job governments.

On 2009-10-31, > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 1:35*pm, Brent > wrote:
>> On 2009-10-31, Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Last time on rec.autos.driving, Larry G > said:
>>
>> >>but the most compelling issue is what happens to funding for roads?
>>
>> >>I'm pretty skeptical that we are going to go to a GPS-in-car mileage
>> >>system.. so I'm thinking we're going to see a LOT MORE tolls..
>> >>including cordon tolls.
>>
>> >>thoughts?
>>
>> > There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>> > change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and haven't
>> > even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels are going to
>> > be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining alternatives,
>> > tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be found to administer
>> > them efficiently without sacrificing privacy, then that may be the
>> > best way to go.
>>
>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government and
>> less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in road
>> projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL tollway
>> authority.
>
> so lets use the corrupt criminal finance houses to administer roads
> and you keep whining about diverting them to other purposes,
> what is it you do not understand
> unless there is a constitutional prohibition against doing that
> there is nothing prohibiting the ELECTED LEGISLATURE from doing
> exactly that
> again what is it you do not understand
> it is so very simple

It's you who "doesn't understand" or just doesn't want to deal with the
truth. The question is why do you reward people with more power and more
money for failure and corruption?

On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
> Brent > wrote:
>>
>> Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>>
>>> There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>>> change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and haven't
>>> even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels are going to
>>> be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining alternatives,
>>> tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be found to administer
>>> them efficiently without sacrificing privacy, then that may be the
>>> best way to go.
>>
>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government and
>> less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in road
>> projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL tollway
>> authority.
>
> So now that you've pointed out all the problems, your solution is? ....

The solution starts with stop rewarding government failure with more
government. People need to realize that first otherwise anything else is
pointless and tilting at windmills.

Brent > wrote:

> On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
>> Brent > wrote:
>>>
>>> Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>>>> change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and
>>>> haven't even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels
>>>> are going to be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining
>>>> alternatives, tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be
>>>> found to administer them efficiently without sacrificing privacy,
>>>> then that may be the best way to go.
>>>
>>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government
>>> and less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in
>>> road projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL
>>> tollway authority.
>>
>> So now that you've pointed out all the problems, your solution is?
>> ....
>
> The solution starts with stop rewarding government failure with more
> government. People need to realize that first otherwise anything else
> is pointless and tilting at windmills.

And how do you propose to do that? What are the details of your proposal
such that highway costs are appropriately apportioned to the users?

Are you suggesting privatization? Tolls?

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:52:59 +0000 (UTC), Brent
> wrote in misc.transport.road:

>On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
>> Brent > wrote:
>>>
>>> Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>>>> change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and haven't
>>>> even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels are going to
>>>> be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining alternatives,
>>>> tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be found to administer
>>>> them efficiently without sacrificing privacy, then that may be the
>>>> best way to go.
>>>
>>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government and
>>> less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in road
>>> projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL tollway
>>> authority.
>>
>> So now that you've pointed out all the problems, your solution is? ....
>
>The solution starts with stop rewarding government failure with more
>government. People need to realize that first otherwise anything else is
>pointless and tilting at windmills.
>

But the gasoline tax and the construction of federally funded highways
are an example of success that only began to fail when those responsible
for collecting enough revenue to maintain it refused to keep taxes at an
appropriate level to pay the expenses. The relatively small diversions
certainly didn't help roads, but they were not the proximate cause of
the problem.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:55:28 +0000 (UTC), James Robinson
> wrote in misc.transport.road:

>Brent > wrote:
>
>> On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
>>> Brent > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>>>>> change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and
>>>>> haven't even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels
>>>>> are going to be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining
>>>>> alternatives, tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be
>>>>> found to administer them efficiently without sacrificing privacy,
>>>>> then that may be the best way to go.
>>>>
>>>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government
>>>> and less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>>>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>>>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>>>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in
>>>> road projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL
>>>> tollway authority.
>>>
>>> So now that you've pointed out all the problems, your solution is?
>>> ....
>>
>> The solution starts with stop rewarding government failure with more
>> government. People need to realize that first otherwise anything else
>> is pointless and tilting at windmills.
>
>And how do you propose to do that? What are the details of your proposal
>such that highway costs are appropriately apportioned to the users?
>
>Are you suggesting privatization? Tolls?

Electronic tolling has made the cost of collecting tolls competitive
with gasoline taxes and, in some ways, but not all, is more fair. So
far, the only two examples of privatization (Chicago and Indiana) were
examples of politicians trying to have their cake and eat it too by
selling off capital assets to manage operating deficits. Chicago and
Indiana politicians know they aren't collecting enough taxes to keep up
with the spending they promised, but they didn't have the guts to either
raise the taxes or cut the spending necessary to have a balanced budget.

"elmer" > wrote
> Scott in SoCal wrote:
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, elmer > said:

> Nuclear energy is not here now and they don't want to bring it on board.
> Solar cells are a joke and a stop gap for such a large requirement and
> very expensive.

Statements like that are why people regard postings like your's a joke.
Nuclear reactors produce almost 20% of the US's power. Last time
I checked, the Diablo reactors (near Avila Beach/San Luis Obispo) and
the San Onofre reactor (north of San Diego) *ARE* in California.

FloydR

On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
> Brent > wrote:
>
>> On 2009-10-31, James Robinson > wrote:
>>> Brent > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no question the way roads are funded is going to have to
>>>>> change. Fuel taxes have been poorly managed for DECADES, and
>>>>> haven't even kept pace with inflation. Alternative vehicle fuels
>>>>> are going to be the death knell for fuel taxes. Of the remaining
>>>>> alternatives, tolls are certanly the most fair. If a way can be
>>>>> found to administer them efficiently without sacrificing privacy,
>>>>> then that may be the best way to go.
>>>>
>>>> So the answer to poorly run government is more poorly run government
>>>> and less freedom for us. Governments mis-manages the fuel taxes by
>>>> diverting them to other purposes. The federal government causes the
>>>> inflation by monkeying around with the economy and over spending.
>>>> Governments squander the money through mis-management and fraud in
>>>> road projects. This doesn't change with tolls. Look at the IL
>>>> tollway authority.
>>>
>>> So now that you've pointed out all the problems, your solution is?
>>> ....
>>
>> The solution starts with stop rewarding government failure with more
>> government. People need to realize that first otherwise anything else
>> is pointless and tilting at windmills.
>
> And how do you propose to do that? What are the details of your proposal
> such that highway costs are appropriately apportioned to the users?

> Are you suggesting privatization? Tolls?

I see no need to repeat myself from prior threads where I've covered
that.

Suppose you tell me how giving the same people who have failed in the
past, abused power and mismanaged money, more money and more power is
going to solve anything?

Furthermore, show that there is a problem with road funding levels as
they are first. It's the funds for the roads that are in surplus and
raided for other purposes.

Gov. Quinn in IL just raided road funds of $200,000,000 to give college
tution grants.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...,5428121.story
"The road fund is at least one state fund that Gov. Pat Quinn said Sunday
officials could borrow from to help restore about $200 million in grants
for the neediest college students."

http://www.wgil.com/localnews.php?xn...9 &newsid=408
"The state has a variety of funds that are set aside for special
purposes, often funded with special taxes or fees, that in aggregate have
a surplus of about $4.5 billion, the governor's office says. Quinn would
not identify all the funds from which he would borrow, but he said the
road fund is a likely source."

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:38:52 +0000 (UTC), Brent
> wrote:

>Furthermore, show that there is a problem with road funding levels as
>they are first.

I'd say there isn't one. My example of this would be right here in
Georgia where there is an ongoing project to widen IH95 from the
Florida line to the South Carolina line. It is being done with no
increase in the gas tax (except for twice yearly adjustments tied to
the price of gas), no public-private partnerships and *no tolls.*

--
"I... Can't drive... FIFTY-FIVE!!"
--Sammy Hagar

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:51:52 +0000 (UTC), Brent
> wrote:

>It's you who "doesn't understand" or just doesn't want to deal with the
>truth. The question is why do you reward people with more power and more
>money for failure and corruption?

My question is why do we keep re-electing them?

--
"Well, if crime fighters fight crime and
fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom
fighters fight?"
--George Carlin