I'm back and it's still sitting in my garage...

Joe wrote:
> On Dec 9, 12:53 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
>> Joe wrote:
>>> On Dec 7, 6:06 pm, wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:40:07 -0800, "ScottM" > wrote:
>>>>> Check for any corroded conections near the battery (acid fumes). If there
>>>>> are any plugs near the battery open them to have a look. I remember a Ford
>>>>> of some kind where they put the main ground for the ECM right next to the
>>>>> battery and it would corrode inside the plug. Couldn't see it without
>>>>> unplugging it.
>>>>> You really could check just one injector with the noid light. Not likley
>>>>> some would fire but not others.
>>>>> "Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>>>>> news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>>>>>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
>>>>>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
>>>>>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
>>>>>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>>>>>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
>>>>>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
>>>>>> high
>>>>>> idle for about 2 seconds.
>>>>>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
>>>>>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>>>>>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
>>>>>> old
>>>>>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>>>>>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
>>>>>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>>>>>> from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com,
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
>>>>>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>>>>>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
>>>>>> again with the exact same results???
>>>>>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
>>>>>> module
>>>>>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>>>>>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
>>>>>> MAF was plugged in.
>>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
>>>>>> MAF's.
>>>>>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
>>>>>> Check
>>>>>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
>>>>>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
>>>>>> (I
>>>>>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
>>>>>> exact same results???
>>>>>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>>>>>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
>>>>>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
>>>>>> check all eight fuel injectors?
>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
>>>>>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>>>> Everyone is pointing toward fuel problems, either delivery or
>>>> electric control through the computer or at the injectors. I remember
>>>> a big problem much like this that frustrated me to no end. Finally
>>>> asked an "expert shade tree mechanic" who said, "Check the timing,
>>>> it's the timing chain that's bad" Well, guess what..... Yup,
>>>> broke a tooth on the sprocket and it was off enough not to fire but
>>>> everything up top was working, just not at the right time.
>>>> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
>>>> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
>>>> John - Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> John,
>>> If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
>> I don't mean to be rude but if you don't know how to check the timing
>> then you need to take the car to a garage and let them figure this out.
>> Right now you are just playing "whack a mole".- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you check the timing on your car when it won't start???
>
> You must be friggin' super-mechanic.

First, the timing doesn't have to be perfect to spec in order for the
engine to run. Second, the posts you have made here show you have
little knowledge about Fox Mustangs. Third, tell me how you would set
the timing if you installed a new distributor? If the timing is off so
far that the car won't start then either you loosened the distributor,
gave it a good twist and/or failed to tighten it down or there is a
catastrophic failure in the distributor, timing chain/gears and/or the
cam drive gear. I would guess that you aren't qualified to perform any
of these potential repairs or even make an accurate diagnosis.

Do the damn car, and us, a favor and take to it a qualified mechanic.
None of us here have a psychic ability to guide you in how to fix it.
Or just let the car sit in your garage but don't whine to us about it.

On Dec 9, 1:32 am, "My Name Is Nobody" > wrote:
> "Joe" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 12:53 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
> >> Joe wrote:
>
> >> >> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
> >> >> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
>
> >> >> John - Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > John,
>
> >> > If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
>
> >> I don't mean to be rude but if you don't know how to check the timing
> >> then you need to take the car to a garage and let them figure this out.
> >> Right now you are just playing "whack a mole".- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Michael,
>
> > Can you check the timing on your car when it won't start???
>
> > You must be friggin' super-mechanic.
>
> > Joe
>
> You really need to take it to a real mechanic Joe.
> Here I'll give you a clue, because you Joe, are obviously NOT even a friggin
> half-assed-mechanic. If you were going to take that distributor out and
> install a new distributor, HOW THE HELL would you set the initial ignition
> timing before you started the engine?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Who said ANYTHING about installing a NEW distributor?

Sure, I removed my old distributor, in order to check the TFI module,
but I first put the no. 1 piston on top dead center, marked the
position of the no. 1 tower, marked the position of the rotor, and
marked the distributor body and the block so it would all go back in
exactly the way it came out.

If I did anything wrong when removing the distributor or if I missed
something when removing the distributor, please, please, please let me
know.

That said, about 8 years ago, I did advance the timing some to get a
few more hp, but when I replaced my distributor because of a crack in
it, I also returned the timing to the OEM spec to get a little better
gas mileage. I believe I followed the exact same procedure described
above without any problems.

Again, if I did anything wrong or if I overlooked anything when
removing and replacing the distributor, I would appreciate knowing
what it was.

Here, I have 40 psi at the Schrader, according to my spark tester, I
am getting a spark, the TFI module tests ok, well at least all of the
resistances are within spec, I assume this means the TFI module is ok,
and my noid light tester confirms that I am not getting any power to
the injectors. So...

Where am I? Well, I am trying to figure out which relay or fuse or
connector or unit/module, could be the culprit regarding the injectors
getting no signal. I swapped my fuel pump relay and WOT cut-off
relay; that did not help. Now, I think, I need to check the
connection to ground for the injectors and possibly the condition of
the PCM and ECM, Would you agree, or do you think I should be looking
at something else? (The wiring diagrams do not indicate any fuses
between the PCM and the injectors, so I am at a loss at where else to
look for a possible fuse problem... no, let me take that back, fuse
link D sits "behind" the PCM, so that is on my list of things to find
and check on.)

If you have any helpful suggestions or constructive advice, I would be
delighted to here it, but I haven't needed a mechanic to do my tune-
ups, brake and clutch jobs, to replace my clutch cable and quadrant,
to replace the OEM air filter with a K&N system, to replace and update
my A/C (except for evacuating the freon), to replace my shocks and
struts, or to fix my convertible top, and I will be damned if 2
naysayers are going to --- I forgot, to replace some balls and joints
and some other armature thing that escapes me right now --- and I will
be damned if 2 naysayers are going to convince me --- I also forgot,
to replace my alternator, thermostat and water pump --- and I will be
damned if 2 naysayers are going to convince me I can not figure my way
through this! So, like I say to my 9 year old son, if you do not have
anything nice to say, keep your FCKNG mouth shut... OK, OK, when
speaking to my 9 year old, I end with, ... then say nothing, but I
think you get my point, uh?

Thanks in advance for your helpful advice or for saying nothing.

Joe

On Dec 7, 12:51 pm, "biggus" > wrote:
> If it ran well friday and would not start Saturday, that would tend to rule
> out the Fuel side of things.
>
> Also the MAF, TFI are OK, and probably your injectors are all getting pulsed
>
> It would indicate you have a loose wire or grounded wire.
>
> If a few injectors were fouled it would run rough, and you have to pull the
> top manifold to get to them, read the codes first.
>
> try the electrical route some more, replace the rotor, cap, and coil. Check
> the wiring around the coil, and check the battery voltage
>
> Check all vacuume hoses for cracks leaks or fallen off,
> there is a vacuume canaster passenger side front low in engine bay that has
> a rubber elbow that expands and gets too loose on 93 and before causes
> vaccume leak
>
> If battery is below 11.2 you may have battery/altinator problem.
>
> 5.0 is very fixable, hang in there.
>
> "Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>
> news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>
>
>
> > So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> > situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> > not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> > suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>
> > Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> > sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
> > high
> > idle for about 2 seconds.
>
> > Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> > specification) at the Schrader valve.
>
> > Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
> > old
> > glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>
> > Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> > peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> > from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com,
> > my
> > Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> > any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> > running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> > again with the exact same results???
>
> > Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
> > module
> > and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>
> > Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
> > the
> > MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
> > down
> > the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> > MAF was plugged in.
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> > MAF's.
>
> > Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> > from
> > the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> > Check
> > Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> > electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
> > (I
> > checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> > exact same results???
>
> > Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
> > see
> > if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>
> > The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> > being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
> > the
> > same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
> > the
> > injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> > check all eight fuel injectors?
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> > respect to the fuel pressure regulator.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Biggus,

Was I out of line in my response to "My Name Is Nobody"? Just in case
I was, rather than allow my Italian temper to move me further down a
road I don't want to go, instead of replying to Mr. Johnson, I am
simply hoping he can find it in himself to hit the [DELETE] key rather
than read any more of my posts.

Thanks, again, for your assistance on this project!

Joe

On Dec 9, 1:59 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> > On Dec 9, 12:53 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
> >> Joe wrote:
> >>> On Dec 7, 6:06 pm, wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:40:07 -0800, "ScottM" > wrote:
> >>>>> Check for any corroded conections near the battery (acid fumes). If there
> >>>>> are any plugs near the battery open them to have a look. I remember a Ford
> >>>>> of some kind where they put the main ground for the ECM right next to the
> >>>>> battery and it would corrode inside the plug. Couldn't see it without
> >>>>> unplugging it.
> >>>>> You really could check just one injector with the noid light. Not likley
> >>>>> some would fire but not others.
> >>>>> "Joe Colella" > wrote in message
> >>>>>news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
> >>>>>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> >>>>>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> >>>>>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> >>>>>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
> >>>>>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> >>>>>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
> >>>>>> high
> >>>>>> idle for about 2 seconds.
> >>>>>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> >>>>>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
> >>>>>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
> >>>>>> old
> >>>>>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
> >>>>>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> >>>>>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> >>>>>> from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com,
> >>>>>> my
> >>>>>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> >>>>>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> >>>>>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> >>>>>> again with the exact same results???
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
> >>>>>> module
> >>>>>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
> >>>>>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
> >>>>>> down
> >>>>>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> >>>>>> MAF was plugged in.
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> >>>>>> MAF's.
> >>>>>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> >>>>>> Check
> >>>>>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> >>>>>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
> >>>>>> (I
> >>>>>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> >>>>>> exact same results???
> >>>>>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
> >>>>>> see
> >>>>>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
> >>>>>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> >>>>>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> >>>>>> check all eight fuel injectors?
> >>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> >>>>>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
> >>>> Everyone is pointing toward fuel problems, either delivery or
> >>>> electric control through the computer or at the injectors. I remember
> >>>> a big problem much like this that frustrated me to no end. Finally
> >>>> asked an "expert shade tree mechanic" who said, "Check the timing,
> >>>> it's the timing chain that's bad" Well, guess what..... Yup,
> >>>> broke a tooth on the sprocket and it was off enough not to fire but
> >>>> everything up top was working, just not at the right time.
> >>>> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
> >>>> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
> >>>> John - Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> John,
> >>> If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
> >> I don't mean to be rude but if you don't know how to check the timing
> >> then you need to take the car to a garage and let them figure this out.
> >> Right now you are just playing "whack a mole".- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Michael,
>
> > Can you check the timing on your car when it won't start???
>
> > You must be friggin' super-mechanic.
>
> First, the timing doesn't have to be perfect to spec in order for the
> engine to run. Second, the posts you have made here show you have
> little knowledge about Fox Mustangs. Third, tell me how you would set
> the timing if you installed a new distributor? If the timing is off so
> far that the car won't start then either you loosened the distributor,
> gave it a good twist and/or failed to tighten it down or there is a
> catastrophic failure in the distributor, timing chain/gears and/or the
> cam drive gear. I would guess that you aren't qualified to perform any
> of these potential repairs or even make an accurate diagnosis.
>
> Do the damn car, and us, a favor and take to it a qualified mechanic.
> None of us here have a psychic ability to guide you in how to fix it.
> Or just let the car sit in your garage but don't whine to us about it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Michael,

As you already know, you were right about the timing and I was wrong.

Sorry for my smart-ass comment.

.... and thanks for your previous help.

Joe

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:39:32 -0800 (PST), Joe > wrote:


>
>
>John,
>
>If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
>
>Joe


Joe,

I am definitely no "expert" at this, so others may very well be able
to guide you better.

Initially, I think I'd put a timing light on it in a darkend garage,
have someone else try to start it and see where the spark is on the
indicator. This is definitely not a scientific way to do it, but if
there is spark at the #1 plug there will be a timing light flash as
the engine turns. This ought to give you some indication in 3 or 4
revs of whether the marks are even close.

Keep in mind, when initially timing an engine, putting the #1 cylinder
in TDC is not the way to do it, Aligning the timing marks on the
front of the engine BEHIND the timing sprockets is the way its advised
to be done) Using the TDC method is a way to "get close" and then
"fine tune it" after the engine is running, but if something has
happened to get it that far off, when putting the new timing set on,
you need to be right on track to prevent dropping a valve or even
worse.

Try advancing the timing as far as it will go in one direction or the
other (45* is one plug on a V8) and see if it will start and run
rough, then go the other direction and try. If it starts, runs rough
and then dies or even if it tends to run at all, then you have spark,
fuel and its a timing issue. Keep in mind, if it is running that far
out of time, you could easily damage a piston or valves, so don't race
it and dont think that you've "fixed it" by advancing the timing.
Something in the timing mechanism changed to make that happen and it
needs to be fixed. If it is a tooth on the timing sprocket, it will
run so erratically you won't be able to keep it in time.

Try a timing light while trying to get it to start, might find the
marks don't even come close (they won't without vaccuum, anyway) but
the marks should be visible.

John

Joe wrote:
> On Dec 9, 1:59 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
>> Joe wrote:
>>> On Dec 9, 12:53 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 7, 6:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:40:07 -0800, "ScottM" > wrote:
>>>>>>> Check for any corroded conections near the battery (acid fumes). If there
>>>>>>> are any plugs near the battery open them to have a look. I remember a Ford
>>>>>>> of some kind where they put the main ground for the ECM right next to the
>>>>>>> battery and it would corrode inside the plug. Couldn't see it without
>>>>>>> unplugging it.
>>>>>>> You really could check just one injector with the noid light. Not likley
>>>>>>> some would fire but not others.
>>>>>>> "Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>>>>>>>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
>>>>>>>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
>>>>>>>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
>>>>>>>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>>>>>>>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
>>>>>>>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>> idle for about 2 seconds.
>>>>>>>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
>>>>>>>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>>>>>>>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>>>>>>>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
>>>>>>>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>>>>>>>> from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com,
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
>>>>>>>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>>>>>>>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
>>>>>>>> again with the exact same results???
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
>>>>>>>> module
>>>>>>>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>>>>>>>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
>>>>>>>> MAF was plugged in.
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
>>>>>>>> MAF's.
>>>>>>>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
>>>>>>>> Check
>>>>>>>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
>>>>>>>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
>>>>>>>> (I
>>>>>>>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
>>>>>>>> exact same results???
>>>>>>>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>>>>>>>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
>>>>>>>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
>>>>>>>> check all eight fuel injectors?
>>>>>>>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
>>>>>>>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>>>>>> Everyone is pointing toward fuel problems, either delivery or
>>>>>> electric control through the computer or at the injectors. I remember
>>>>>> a big problem much like this that frustrated me to no end. Finally
>>>>>> asked an "expert shade tree mechanic" who said, "Check the timing,
>>>>>> it's the timing chain that's bad" Well, guess what..... Yup,
>>>>>> broke a tooth on the sprocket and it was off enough not to fire but
>>>>>> everything up top was working, just not at the right time.
>>>>>> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
>>>>>> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
>>>>>> John - Hide quoted text -
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>> John,
>>>>> If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
>>>> I don't mean to be rude but if you don't know how to check the timing
>>>> then you need to take the car to a garage and let them figure this out.
>>>> Right now you are just playing "whack a mole".- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> Michael,
>>> Can you check the timing on your car when it won't start???
>>> You must be friggin' super-mechanic.
>> First, the timing doesn't have to be perfect to spec in order for the
>> engine to run. Second, the posts you have made here show you have
>> little knowledge about Fox Mustangs. Third, tell me how you would set
>> the timing if you installed a new distributor? If the timing is off so
>> far that the car won't start then either you loosened the distributor,
>> gave it a good twist and/or failed to tighten it down or there is a
>> catastrophic failure in the distributor, timing chain/gears and/or the
>> cam drive gear. I would guess that you aren't qualified to perform any
>> of these potential repairs or even make an accurate diagnosis.
>>
>> Do the damn car, and us, a favor and take to it a qualified mechanic.
>> None of us here have a psychic ability to guide you in how to fix it.
>> Or just let the car sit in your garage but don't whine to us about it.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Michael,
>
> As you already know, you were right about the timing and I was wrong.
>
> Sorry for my smart-ass comment.
>
> ... and thanks for your previous help.

Sorry if I was rude. I wasn't trying to be. Sometimes there just comes
a point where having a mechanic involved makes sense to get the problem
fixed. Many times this route is less expensive since you won't waste
money on buying parts that were never needed in the first place. There
are so many potential causes of your problem that we may not be able to
point you to the right one. We have guided you to the ones that are
obvious and easy to diagnose and it looks like there is something wrong
that needs a professional to pinpoint it.

As cars get more complicated through the use of electronics it is harder
to diagnose problems. While the Fox Mustang has a lot of old school
design employed it does have a certain level of electronic control that
makes diagnosis of some repairs very difficult without more
sophisticated equipment or in depth knowledge of the car's systems. My
comments were only meant to give you good advice based on my own
personal experienced of owning a Fox Mustang continuously since 1987 and
from heavily modifying it over the years.

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:53:09 -0500, Michael Johnson >
wrote:


>As cars get more complicated through the use of electronics it is harder
>to diagnose problems. While the Fox Mustang has a lot of old school
>design employed it does have a certain level of electronic control that
>makes diagnosis of some repairs very difficult without more
>sophisticated equipment or in depth knowledge of the car's systems. My
>comments were only meant to give you good advice based on my own
>personal experienced of owning a Fox Mustang continuously since 1987 and
>from heavily modifying it over the years.

Still have not heard if he has 12 volts to the injectors.
Without that, he doesn't stand a chance.
He can check that with a standard 12 volt test light to ground.

The other test light check is to put the test light from batt pos to
the "ground" side of the injectors and crank the engine. If the light
flashes the ECU is triggering the injectors. If he has no 12 volts and
has a trigger, it will be a connection, fuse, or relay. If he has no
12 volts AND no trigger it will be one of those common to both the
injector circuit and the PCM.
If he has no 12 volts and has a trigger it will be one specific to the
injector power only.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Joe" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 9, 1:32 am, "My Name Is Nobody" > wrote:
>> "Joe" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 9, 12:53 am, Michael Johnson > wrote:
>> >> Joe wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
>> >> >> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
>>
>> >> >> John - Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> > John,
>>
>> >> > If my car won't start, how would I check the timing?
>>
>> >> I don't mean to be rude but if you don't know how to check the timing
>> >> then you need to take the car to a garage and let them figure this
>> >> out.
>> >> Right now you are just playing "whack a mole".- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Michael,
>>
>> > Can you check the timing on your car when it won't start???
>>
>> > You must be friggin' super-mechanic.
>>
>> > Joe
>>
>> You really need to take it to a real mechanic Joe.
>> Here I'll give you a clue, because you Joe, are obviously NOT even a
>> friggin
>> half-assed-mechanic. If you were going to take that distributor out and
>> install a new distributor, HOW THE HELL would you set the initial
>> ignition
>> timing before you started the engine?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Who said ANYTHING about installing a NEW distributor?
>
> Sure, I removed my old distributor, in order to check the TFI module,
> but I first put the no. 1 piston on top dead center, marked the
> position of the no. 1 tower, marked the position of the rotor, and
> marked the distributor body and the block so it would all go back in
> exactly the way it came out.
>
> If I did anything wrong when removing the distributor or if I missed
> something when removing the distributor, please, please, please let me
> know.
>
> That said, about 8 years ago, I did advance the timing some to get a
> few more hp, but when I replaced my distributor because of a crack in
> it,

distributor, or distributor cap ?

>I also returned the timing to the OEM spec to get a little better
> gas mileage.


what did you set it to?
It won't save any gas milage.


>I believe I followed the exact same procedure described
> above without any problems.
>
> Again, if I did anything wrong or if I overlooked anything when
> removing and replacing the distributor, I would appreciate knowing
> what it was.


all this dosen't matter because you said it was running OK a week ago.

Your story is morfing.


>
> Here, I have 40 psi at the Schrader, according to my spark tester, I
> am getting a spark, the TFI module tests ok, well at least all of the
> resistances are within spec, I assume this means the TFI module is ok,
> and my noid light tester confirms that I am not getting any power to
> the injectors. So...

but your car ran fine a week or so ago, right? swap out computer, right?



>
> Where am I? Well, I am trying to figure out which relay or fuse or
> connector or unit/module, could be the culprit regarding the injectors
> getting no signal. I swapped my fuel pump relay and WOT cut-off
> relay; that did not help. Now, I think, I need to check the
> connection to ground for the injectors and possibly the condition of
> the PCM and ECM, Would you agree, or do you think I should be looking
> at something else? (The wiring diagrams do not indicate any fuses
> between the PCM and the injectors, so I am at a loss at where else to
> look for a possible fuse problem... no, let me take that back, fuse
> link D sits "behind" the PCM, so that is on my list of things to find
> and check on.)
>
> If you have any helpful suggestions or constructive advice, I would be
> delighted to here it, but I haven't needed a mechanic to do my tune-
> ups, brake and clutch jobs, to replace my clutch cable and quadrant,
> to replace the OEM air filter with a K&N system, to replace and update
> my A/C (except for evacuating the freon), to replace my shocks and
> struts, or to fix my convertible top, and I will be damned if 2
> naysayers are going to --- I forgot, to replace some balls and joints
> and some other armature thing that escapes me right now --- and I will
> be damned if 2 naysayers are going to convince me --- I also forgot,
> to replace my alternator, thermostat and water pump --- and I will be
> damned if 2 naysayers are going to convince me I can not figure my way
> through this! So, like I say to my 9 year old son, if you do not have
> anything nice to say, keep your FCKNG mouth shut... OK, OK, when
> speaking to my 9 year old, I end with, ... then say nothing, but I
> think you get my point, uh?
>
> Thanks in advance for your helpful advice or for saying nothing.
>
> Joe

take it to a shop, you are getting too emotional with your old bucket of
bolts that won't start now because it *Hates* you. (unless you find the
problem)

On Dec 7, 12:51 pm, "biggus" > wrote:
> If it ran well friday and would not start Saturday, that would tend to rule
> out the Fuel side of things.
>
> Also the MAF, TFI are OK, and probably your injectors are all getting pulsed
>
> It would indicate you have a loose wire or grounded wire.
>
> If a few injectors were fouled it would run rough, and you have to pull the
> top manifold to get to them, read the codes first.
>
> try the electrical route some more, replace the rotor, cap, and coil. Check
> the wiring around the coil, and check the battery voltage
>
> Check all vacuume hoses for cracks leaks or fallen off,
> there is a vacuume canaster passenger side front low in engine bay that has
> a rubber elbow that expands and gets too loose on 93 and before causes
> vaccume leak
>
> If battery is below 11.2 you may have battery/altinator problem.
>
> 5.0 is very fixable, hang in there.
>
> "Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>
> news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>
>
>
> > So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> > situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> > not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> > suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>
> > Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> > sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
> > high
> > idle for about 2 seconds.
>
> > Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> > specification) at the Schrader valve.
>
> > Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
> > old
> > glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>
> > Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> > peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> > from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com,
> > my
> > Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> > any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> > running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> > again with the exact same results???
>
> > Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
> > module
> > and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>
> > Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
> > the
> > MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
> > down
> > the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> > MAF was plugged in.
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> > MAF's.
>
> > Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> > from
> > the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> > Check
> > Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> > electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
> > (I
> > checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> > exact same results???
>
> > Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
> > see
> > if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>
> > The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> > being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
> > the
> > same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
> > the
> > injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> > check all eight fuel injectors?
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> > respect to the fuel pressure regulator.- Hide quoted text -
>


> Also the MAF, TFI are OK, and probably your injectors are all getting pulsed

TFI - If testing the 6 resistances called for in Chilton's is
conclusive, then yes, the TFI is OK since all of the resistances were
in spec.

Injectors - I tested one injector connection with a noid tester and it
did not flash, but I also checked the voltage at the connector... one
side had 12V and the other side had 0V.

> It would indicate you have a loose wire or grounded wire.

Given this additional information, would you still focus on a loose
wire or a grounded wire or look somewhere else?

> If a few injectors were fouled it would run rough, and you have to pull the
> top manifold to get to them, read the codes first.

I could not pull any codes with my OBD1 code reader. It simply never
entered test mode.

> try the electrical route some more, replace the rotor, cap, and coil.

I have not replaced the rotor, cap or coil... perhaps I should check
the coil, at least.

> Check the wiring around the coil, and check the battery voltage.

Wiring seems fine; battery is in good shape.

> Check all vacuume hoses for cracks leaks or fallen off,
> there is a vacuume canaster passenger side front low in engine bay that has
> a rubber elbow that expands and gets too loose on 93 and before causes
> vaccume leak

Done, everything seems to be in good order.

> If battery is below 11.2 you may have battery/altinator problem.

Battery reads 12.9; that said, after trying to run the code tester,
the voltage had dropped, but I was able to recharge the battery at 2A
in a matter of minutes.

> 5.0 is very fixable, hang in there.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Joe

On Dec 7, 12:53 pm, Michael Johnson > wrote:
> Joe Colella wrote:
> > So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> > situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> > not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> > suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>
> > Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> > sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a high
> > idle for about 2 seconds.
>
> > Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> > specification) at the Schrader valve.
>
> > Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big old
> > glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>
> > Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> > peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> > from the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> > Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> > any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> > running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> > again with the exact same results???
>
> > Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI module
> > and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>
> > Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged the
> > MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid down
> > the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> > MAF was plugged in.
>
> > Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> > MAF's.
>
> > Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes from
> > the ECM by following the directions fromwww.fordfuelinjection.com, my Check
> > Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> > electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running. (I
> > checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> > exact same results???
>
> > Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to see
> > if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>
> > The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> > being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking the
> > same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of the
> > injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> > check all eight fuel injectors?
>
> > Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> > respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>
> There is one possibility and that is a bad computer. The computer in my
> '89 LX died at around 1,000 miles so it is possible.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Michael,

When you said...

> There is one possibility and that is a bad computer.

You meant the PCM, right?

Thanks!

Joe