Dodge Challenger: A Go For 2008.5!

On Fri, 19 May 2006 12:01:33 GMT, Joe > wrote:
<snip>
>
>We can wait, but what's the point? Right now, the Mustang GT stands alone
>as there's no real competition, and it's a great car to boot. I simply
>think that Ford has become the Boy Who Cried Wolf at this point.
>
Without a doubt Ford caught all of its competitors with their
collective panties down. Not for the first time either. What is
really different this time around is no other domestic maker has an
available stop-gap production model they can throw into the fray like
in the sixties until they can come out with their own "clean sheet of
paper" version. Look at what happened the first time around with what
DC used to be & Ford. By the time the Challenger hit the marketplace
the tide had already begun to turn because of federal regulation and
fuel prices. Anyone else see a Déjà Vue scenario getting ready to
play out?
--
For choosing to fight, one gets the horrors of war,stress,and possibly
death.

For choosing not to fight, one gets subjugation,humiliation,and
possibly death.

Choose your fights carefully.

"Joe" > wrote in message
...
> Backyard Mechanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> Joe > wrote:
>>
>>> However, if history is any
>>> indication of things to come, Ford will be a day late and a dollar
>>> short.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> In the CONTEXT of this discussion and considering that Chrysler is
> only
>> marketing retro NAMES, not looks*, and the fact that the Challenger is
> 2
>> years away, I find that AMUSING.
>>
>> *Unless you find the PT Cruiser attractive.. or maybe the roadster
>> whatsitsname..
>
> Don't know what rock you're living under, but DC is SELLING Hemi cars
> like hotcakes right now.
>
> Joe
> Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
> Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car with
a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have at it, I'll
pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it wouldn't be
Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...

On Fri, 19 May 2006 17:32:48 GMT, "My Names Nobody" >
wrote:

>
>"Joe" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Backyard Mechanic > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Joe > wrote:
>>>
>>>> However, if history is any
>>>> indication of things to come, Ford will be a day late and a dollar
>>>> short.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> In the CONTEXT of this discussion and considering that Chrysler is
>> only
>>> marketing retro NAMES, not looks*, and the fact that the Challenger is
>> 2
>>> years away, I find that AMUSING.
>>>
>>> *Unless you find the PT Cruiser attractive.. or maybe the roadster
>>> whatsitsname..
>>
>> Don't know what rock you're living under, but DC is SELLING Hemi cars
>> like hotcakes right now.
>>
>> Joe
>> Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
>> Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
>
>Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car with
>a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have at it, I'll
>pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it wouldn't be
>Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...
>
Juciy Lucy and her trained Hila-monster?
--
For choosing to fight, one gets the horrors of war,stress,and possibly
death.

For choosing not to fight, one gets subjugation,humiliation,and
possibly death.

Choose your fights carefully.

My Names Nobody wrote:
> Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car with
> a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have at it, I'll
> pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it wouldn't be
> Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...

So is your beef with the fact that the engines are assembled in Mexico,
or that Diamler-Chrysler is a German company, or???

The 5.7 and 6.1L "hemi" engines make quite a bit of power and torque,
get reasonable mileage (for what they are) and seem reliable.

I've actually been looking at buying an SRT-8 Charger with the 6.1L
engine. They're a bit hard to come by (but a walk in the park compared
to anything in that power range produced by Ford), but not impossible.
The street price is in the low-40's once you've got it optioned up. So
yes, that's $15k more than a vanilla Mustang GT. The only stock Mustang
that will run with that car is the new GT500 and you can bet your ass
that you won't be getting into one of those for anything close to
MSRP...which probably makes it $15K MORE than the Charger SRT-8. I
haven't seen pricing for the Challenger (or even any convincing evidence
that it will even see production) so I used the Charger as a real world,
"you can buy one today" example.

Cheers,

Zombywoof > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 19 May 2006 17:32:48 GMT, "My Names Nobody" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joe" > wrote in message
.. .
>>> Backyard Mechanic > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Joe > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> However, if history is any
>>>>> indication of things to come, Ford will be a day late and a dollar
>>>>> short.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the CONTEXT of this discussion and considering that Chrysler is
>>> only
>>>> marketing retro NAMES, not looks*, and the fact that the Challenger
>>>> is
>>> 2
>>>> years away, I find that AMUSING.
>>>>
>>>> *Unless you find the PT Cruiser attractive.. or maybe the roadster
>>>> whatsitsname..
>>>
>>> Don't know what rock you're living under, but DC is SELLING Hemi
>>> cars like hotcakes right now.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
>>> Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
>>
>>Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car
>>with a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have
>>at it, I'll pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it
>>wouldn't be Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...
>>
> Juciy Lucy and her trained Hila-monster?

A while ago I read somewhere that the Russians (or was it the Chinese?)
are going to sell cars here in the U.S. Don't remember any details
though..

Ritz wrote:

> My Names Nobody wrote:
>> Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car
>> with
>> a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have at it,
>> I'll
>> pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it wouldn't be
>> Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...
>
> So is your beef with the fact that the engines are assembled in Mexico,
> or that Diamler-Chrysler is a German company, or???
>
> The 5.7 and 6.1L "hemi" engines make quite a bit of power and torque,
> get reasonable mileage (for what they are) and seem reliable.
>
> I've actually been looking at buying an SRT-8 Charger with the 6.1L
> engine. They're a bit hard to come by (but a walk in the park compared
> to anything in that power range produced by Ford), but not impossible.
> The street price is in the low-40's once you've got it optioned up. So
> yes, that's $15k more than a vanilla Mustang GT. The only stock Mustang
> that will run with that car is the new GT500 and you can bet your ass
> that you won't be getting into one of those for anything close to
> MSRP...which probably makes it $15K MORE than the Charger SRT-8. I
> haven't seen pricing for the Challenger (or even any convincing evidence
> that it will even see production) so I used the Charger as a real world,
> "you can buy one today" example.
>
> Cheers,


My $.02..

My "beef' with the Charger is that it looks like something out of a bad Dick
Tracy comic book.. Whoever the Design Engineer was, they need to find
another line of work.. The Challenger concept car is what the Charger
should have been... I do hope it makes it to the production line..

Yep, The top of the line Charger is faster than most.. but how many times
you gonna test that? It's all in the matter of what you are looking for in
a car.. For me, it is styling, and plenty of power.. The Mustang GT has
both.. The Charger is loaded on Power, but is defintely lacking in the
style department.. imho..

To each his own.. For me, I will stick with my '06, GT Ragtop..

Tony

Zombywoof > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 19 May 2006 12:01:33 GMT, Joe > wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>>We can wait, but what's the point? Right now, the Mustang GT stands
>>alone as there's no real competition, and it's a great car to boot. I
>>simply think that Ford has become the Boy Who Cried Wolf at this
>>point.
>>
> Without a doubt Ford caught all of its competitors with their
> collective panties down. Not for the first time either. What is
> really different this time around is no other domestic maker has an
> available stop-gap production model they can throw into the fray like
> in the sixties until they can come out with their own "clean sheet of
> paper" version.

True, but other makers have cars that Ford just can't compete against.
The 300/Magnum/Charger platform runs rings around the CV, for example.
I read that police departments are now trading in their CVs for Hemi-
powered Chargers.

> Look at what happened the first time around with what
> DC used to be & Ford. By the time the Challenger hit the marketplace
> the tide had already begun to turn because of federal regulation and
> fuel prices. Anyone else see a Déjà Vue scenario getting ready to
> play out?

Personally, I think that gas will average out somewhere between $3 and
$4 per gallon, and after people get used to that, it's SSDD. Lots of
Americans will always want bigger, more powerful cars and they'll simply
pay for them.

tony wrote:
> Ritz wrote:
>
>> My Names Nobody wrote:
>>> Yes that is true, lots of people like the idea of driving a German car
>>> with
>>> a Hemi (in name only) engine assembled in Mexico. They can have at it,
>>> I'll
>>> pass. If I were going to drive a German companies car, it wouldn't be
>>> Daimler Chrysler Mexican powered red headed step child...
>> So is your beef with the fact that the engines are assembled in Mexico,
>> or that Diamler-Chrysler is a German company, or???
>>
>> The 5.7 and 6.1L "hemi" engines make quite a bit of power and torque,
>> get reasonable mileage (for what they are) and seem reliable.
>>
>> I've actually been looking at buying an SRT-8 Charger with the 6.1L
>> engine. They're a bit hard to come by (but a walk in the park compared
>> to anything in that power range produced by Ford), but not impossible.
>> The street price is in the low-40's once you've got it optioned up. So
>> yes, that's $15k more than a vanilla Mustang GT. The only stock Mustang
>> that will run with that car is the new GT500 and you can bet your ass
>> that you won't be getting into one of those for anything close to
>> MSRP...which probably makes it $15K MORE than the Charger SRT-8. I
>> haven't seen pricing for the Challenger (or even any convincing evidence
>> that it will even see production) so I used the Charger as a real world,
>> "you can buy one today" example.
>>
>> Cheers,
>
>
> My $.02..
>
> My "beef' with the Charger is that it looks like something out of a bad Dick
> Tracy comic book.. Whoever the Design Engineer was, they need to find
> another line of work.. The Challenger concept car is what the Charger
> should have been... I do hope it makes it to the production line..


It's also a 4-door sedan (Charger) and not really in the same market
segment as the Mustang. And, like everything else, beauty is in the eye
of the beholder.


> Yep, The top of the line Charger is faster than most.. but how many times
> you gonna test that?


<George Patton>

Every damn day!

</George Patton>


It's all in the matter of what you are looking for in
> a car.. For me, it is styling, and plenty of power.. The Mustang GT has
> both.. The Charger is loaded on Power, but is defintely lacking in the
> style department.. imho..

I like the Mustang styling too. It looks fantastic. However, the stock
engine just doesn't interest me at all. To get any useful power from
the Mustang without modding it yourself, you're looking at a GT500
(which is a beautiful car), but the Ford dealer gouge machine will
insure that people pay a hefty premium for the *privilege* of buying
one. So the Mustang definitely wins on the styling front. Then there's
that pesky issue of occasionally having to haul around kids or other
passengers. The extra pair of doors in the Charger is nice. Having a
place to put your knees is also very nice. The back seat in the Mustang
is not quite as big a joke as in the Beetle, but it's not far behind.

The only thing I'll miss in the Charger (sniff sniff) is the lack of a
manual transmission. That's what's kept me glued to my twin turbo A6
for so long...comfy...manual trans...lots of power...(and a bonus of AWD).


> To each his own.. For me, I will stick with my '06, GT Ragtop..

Not a bad choice if you like to mod your engine and you don't need to
cart passengers around. It certainly looks purty.

Cheers,

Joe wrote:
> wrote in news:1148006018.598062.225590
> @y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> > Joe wrote:

> >> Right. The Challenger is basically old news at this point; I was
> > >just wondering why Patrick posted the ridiculous comparo.

> > Because up until this point in time the Challenger was only a show
> > car.
> > Now it seems the decision has finally been made to put it into
> > production.

> Everything I've read on the Challenger indicated that it was always
> destined for standard production, whereas the GT500 was always hyped as
> limited production. The Challenger's drivetrain is right out of the
> current parts bin. To compare the Challenger to a GT500 is simply
> apples and oranges.

Joe,

Going by what we know now there'll be about 9,000 GT500s built. I
think that's about on par with previous year Cobras. Is that "limited"?
At this point we don't know what DC's marketing strategy will be for
the Challenger, if they even build it. But let just say they do green
light it. Do you think there'll be a market for more than 9,000 6.1
liter, 425 HP Challengers? (Especially with an LS2 Camaro likely
debuting at the same time) Especially knowing that the other SRT LX
sedans run about $40Gs?

Me... I'll guess and say the GT500 and 6.1-liter Challenger will likely
be apples and apples.

Patrick

Joe wrote:
> >> > The real question is who is producing what and who is just talking
> >> > about it...

> >> Well, let's see. Ford is yapping about all kinds of non-existent
> >> products in dreamland while they're selling a 300hp 4.6.

> > You forgot to add, that out runs any of the standard Hemi cars.

> The Charger SRT8 will easily go up against any Mustang GT.

They better, seeing they run an extra $15K more. But then know with
just a chip and a little weight loss, Hot Rod magazine got a Mustang GT
running 108 mph traps -- enough to run with the SRT8.

> >>DC isn't talking much but selling a 425hp 6.1.

> > And which sells for about $15K more than the Mustang GT.

> Because it's $15k more car than the Mustang GT.

Hey, I hope DC sells a ton of them!!

But for the average Joe 6-pack in the market for a hot new car, a $40K
SRT-8 is likely just a fantasy. So instead he'll end up tossing down
his hard-earned green for the cheaper $25K Mustang GT. In this
reality, Ford is doing more for the common guy, so should you really be
that hard on the Blue Oval?

> >> I think that answers the "real" question.

> > Well, now it does.

> DC's Hemi cars are all bigger, heavier, and more powerful than the Mustang
> GT. In truth, the Mustang GT and Hemi cars are in different categories.

Mostly, yeah. But I'm sure a few find the extra dollars/and need for a
standard $30K hemi four-door.

> My point here is that Ford's standard production engine offerings are
> lame.

I'm not going to argue against more horsepower from the factory, but
that little 3-valve kicks pretty good, especially for only $25K. And
really kicks knowing a few simply mods can it can gallop!

> Ford needs a 400-hp naturally aspirated production motor, while DC
> needs a smaller, lighter car for its Hemi. That's the _real_ story.

My fear is the Challenger will end up being a 4,000 lb styling
exercise. (Do we really want another SSR?) That pillarless top scares
me! I say screw trying to make it look exactly like the original. I
say instead build it right (nice and light) -- with a nice stiff hard
top -- that's focused on performance.

> >> > You don't think Ford can drop a comparable engine into the Mustang GT
> >> > three years from now, to compete with the Germans as yet imaginary,
> >> > and underpowered Challenger?

> >> Considering that Ford has absolutely nothing to compete with either of
> >> the Hemis, that's a pretty funny question.

> > Please note: Ford's 6.2 liter "Hurricane" V8 is slated for production.

> Please note: Ford has traditionally teased the buying public with such
> tall tales.

Joe, the Hurricane V8 is coming. The F150's market demands it.

> >> As for the future, who really knows? However, if history is any
> >> indication of things to come, Ford will be a day late and a dollar
> >> short.

> > Yep, and that's why Mustang has remained in production all these years
> > and the Challenger and Camaro are returning after a number of years of
> > being on hiatus.

> No real point there.

You got my point.

C'mon, Joe, give the Blue Oval guys some credit. Like an athlete, Ford
hasn't won them all but their track record shows they've been
competitive more often than their Challengers, and have given their
arch rival Camaro fits, if not on the test track at least in the
showroom.

> But as long as you're talking about heritage and
> whatnot, let's mention the anemic Mustang II and the almost-produced FWD
> Mustang that turned into the Probe but for public outcry.

That's okay. You can criticize anything in that era -- the two-ton
Vettes and Firebirds, the wheezing Camaros, or the non-existant Mopar
pony cars.

As for almost-produced FWD Mustang, let's focus on the "almost"
produced part. As in never produced. Ford listened and then got in
right, well mostly. But then Ford has never done the Mustang perfect.


> > I say let's wait until '08 to see who has the best performance product
> > for the $$$s.

> We can wait, but what's the point? Right now, the Mustang GT stands alone
> as there's no real competition, and it's a great car to boot. I simply
> think that Ford has become the Boy Who Cried Wolf at this point.

I don't follow.

But anyways, look at what Ford has out there right now. You can pick
up a used '93-'01 Cobra. Or a supercharged '03-'04 Teminator. There's
the Bullit cars. The '03-'04 Mach 1s. The '05s will soon hit the used
car market. And then there's the new Hertz cars that will be available
in a few years.

It's a good time to be a Mustang enthusiast!

Patrick