Ethanol

I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
ethanol mix?

Dave

I haven't really heard any complaints from stockers. You're the first so
far! Ethanol is something I have to steer clear of with my '03 Cobra due to
the way I recalibrated the PCM. Corn is not your friend!! hehe

"Deputy Dog" > wrote in message
news:lLDOh.3853$Rp2.633@trndny04...
>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
> ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
> generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
> it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
> diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
> ethanol mix?
>
> Dave
>
>

Deputy Dog wrote:
> I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
> ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
> generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
> it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
> diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
> ethanol mix?
>
> Dave
>
>

Back when I was in PA, I swore off Sunoco and such for the Ethanol
content. It was maybe a penny or two cheaper per gallon but I always
got far worse gas mileage on it. I didn't have the pinging problem you
have, but it was just noticeably a poor performing (MPG-wise) fuel.
BP-Amoco, Mobil, and Exxon, in my neighborhood at least, all ran well.

Here in Westchester County, NY, everything's mixed with Ethanol as we
run near California emissions levels (complete with dynos to
emissions-test for NOx). I'm not driving my '97 Cobra out here, but my
Eclipse definitely suffers in the fuel economy area, at least. I'd
blame the fuel on the loss of "pep" but the 160k turbocharged miles
isn't helping my cause - these cars aren't known for their longevity.

JS

In article >, Tyler Cobb wrote:
> I haven't really heard any complaints from stockers. You're the first so
> far! Ethanol is something I have to steer clear of with my '03 Cobra due to
> the way I recalibrated the PCM. Corn is not your friend!! hehe
>
> "Deputy Dog" > wrote in message
> news:lLDOh.3853$Rp2.633@trndny04...
>>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
>> ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
>> generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
>> it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
>> diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
>> ethanol mix?


In IL everything is up to 10% ethanol. I've had no problem with my '97 GT
running on it.... now the '73 250I6 really didn't like those early RFG
formulations back in ~1995. But that was sorted out years ago.

Ashton Crusher wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:29:05 GMT, "Deputy Dog"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
>>ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
>>generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
>>it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
>>diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
>>ethanol mix?
>>
>>Dave
>>
>
>
> I'd be surprised if it's the ethanol as much as just cheap gas.
> Ethanol has higher octane then gas so it shouldn't ping. It does have
> lower energy content so you get a little less power and some people
> get allot worse gas mileage but I've never found it to cause pinging
> in any of my vehicles.

100% ethanol has ~70% of the energy content of gas, so a mixture of
10% ethanol (and 90% gas) should result in a MPG decrease of ~3%;
hardly enough to notice. Likewise, the power might be down 3%, and
that's equally hard to notice. Further, the pumps typically state
"up to 10%", but I understand that the normal mixture is a lot less
than 10% for now.

Ethanol is a scam IMHO, because the forced use of ethanol will do very
little to reduce dependence on foreign oil and the subsidies are just
a transfer of wealth to agribusiness, but the negative effect on car
MPG and power is very small at the 10% level.
--
Cheers, Bob

"Deputy Dog" > wrote in
news:lLDOh.3853$Rp2.633@trndny04:

> I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas
> with ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in
> Pa most generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about
> 10% ethanol in it. It runs sweet on the same grade from
> BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol diclaimer on their pumps though.).
> Any one else have a problem this the ethanol mix?
>
> Dave

Don't touch the stuff myself..

On Mar 29, 5:11 am, Bob Willard >
wrote:
> Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:29:05 GMT, "Deputy Dog"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
> >>ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
> >>generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
> >>it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
> >>diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
> >>ethanol mix?
>
> >>Dave
>
> > I'd be surprised if it's the ethanol as much as just cheap gas.
> > Ethanol has higher octane then gas so it shouldn't ping. It does have
> > lower energy content so you get a little less power and some people
> > get allot worse gas mileage but I've never found it to cause pinging
> > in any of my vehicles.
>
> 100% ethanol has ~70% of the energy content of gas, so a mixture of
> 10% ethanol (and 90% gas) should result in a MPG decrease of ~3%;
> hardly enough to notice. Likewise, the power might be down 3%, and
> that's equally hard to notice. Further, the pumps typically state
> "up to 10%", but I understand that the normal mixture is a lot less
> than 10% for now.
>
> Ethanol is a scam IMHO, because the forced use of ethanol will do very
> little to reduce dependence on foreign oil and the subsidies are just
> a transfer of wealth to agribusiness, but the negative effect on car
> MPG and power is very small at the 10% level.
> --
> Cheers, Bob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ethanol is a scam? Poor Bob, do you not realize that 10% of the
amount of foreign oil that is used in the US is a very large amount.
Using Ethanol makes the price of your gas $2.50 instead of $3 a gallon
because countries have to compete with the market. Would you rather
the money be spent on foreign countries instead of US farmers?
Ethanol is a lot cheaper than foreign oil. And this wealth you talk
about, if anyone is making extensive profits off of gas its the gas
companies that are recording record profits, not agribusinesses.

84_mustang_5.0 wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:11 am, Bob Willard >
> wrote:
>> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:29:05 GMT, "Deputy Dog"
>>> > wrote:
>>>> I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
>>>> ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
>>>> generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
>>>> it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
>>>> diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
>>>> ethanol mix?
>>>> Dave
>>> I'd be surprised if it's the ethanol as much as just cheap gas.
>>> Ethanol has higher octane then gas so it shouldn't ping. It does have
>>> lower energy content so you get a little less power and some people
>>> get allot worse gas mileage but I've never found it to cause pinging
>>> in any of my vehicles.
>> 100% ethanol has ~70% of the energy content of gas, so a mixture of
>> 10% ethanol (and 90% gas) should result in a MPG decrease of ~3%;
>> hardly enough to notice. Likewise, the power might be down 3%, and
>> that's equally hard to notice. Further, the pumps typically state
>> "up to 10%", but I understand that the normal mixture is a lot less
>> than 10% for now.
>>
>> Ethanol is a scam IMHO, because the forced use of ethanol will do very
>> little to reduce dependence on foreign oil and the subsidies are just
>> a transfer of wealth to agribusiness, but the negative effect on car
>> MPG and power is very small at the 10% level.
>> --
>> Cheers, Bob- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ethanol is a scam? Poor Bob, do you not realize that 10% of the
> amount of foreign oil that is used in the US is a very large amount.
> Using Ethanol makes the price of your gas $2.50 instead of $3 a gallon
> because countries have to compete with the market. Would you rather
> the money be spent on foreign countries instead of US farmers?
> Ethanol is a lot cheaper than foreign oil. And this wealth you talk
> about, if anyone is making extensive profits off of gas its the gas
> companies that are recording record profits, not agribusinesses.

Producing ethanol requires a lot of energy use in itself. I think it is
a poor path to take for any real improvements in energy production. It
depletes top soil, promotes erosion, requires the use of artificial
fertilizers etc. Then for all your trouble you get a product that has a
much lower specific energy then the substance you are trying to replace.
After analyzing the net positives and negatives between producing
petroleum and ethanol I wonder if one type of fuel is any better than
the other. At least with oil Mother Nature has done all the "shaking
and baking" so the net energy gain is probably much higher per gallon.

IMO, the real improvements that will make a marked improvement in
domestic energy production from all aspects will be those that produce
electricity as an end result. Electricity use in itself is clean and if
it is produced with hydro, geothermal, wind, tides, solar etc. it is far
and away the most environmentally friendly power source.

Ultimately, I believe fusion will be the final answer to our energy
problems. We will crack the secrets to do it on a large scale over
time. When that day arrives energy will be abundant, cheap and
eventually available to all. Think of all the problems (environmental,
social, economic and political) that will be solved when this happens.

84_mustang_5.0 wrote:
> On Mar 29, 5:11 am, Bob Willard >
> wrote:
>
>>Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:29:05 GMT, "Deputy Dog"
> wrote:
>>
>>>>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas with
>>>>ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
>>>>generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol in
>>>>it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the ethanol
>>>>diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
>>>>ethanol mix?
>>
>>>>Dave
>>
>>>I'd be surprised if it's the ethanol as much as just cheap gas.
>>>Ethanol has higher octane then gas so it shouldn't ping. It does have
>>>lower energy content so you get a little less power and some people
>>>get allot worse gas mileage but I've never found it to cause pinging
>>>in any of my vehicles.
>>
>>100% ethanol has ~70% of the energy content of gas, so a mixture of
>>10% ethanol (and 90% gas) should result in a MPG decrease of ~3%;
>>hardly enough to notice. Likewise, the power might be down 3%, and
>>that's equally hard to notice. Further, the pumps typically state
>>"up to 10%", but I understand that the normal mixture is a lot less
>>than 10% for now.
>>
>>Ethanol is a scam IMHO, because the forced use of ethanol will do very
>>little to reduce dependence on foreign oil and the subsidies are just
>>a transfer of wealth to agribusiness, but the negative effect on car
>>MPG and power is very small at the 10% level.
>>--
>>Cheers, Bob- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Ethanol is a scam? Poor Bob, do you not realize that 10% of the
> amount of foreign oil that is used in the US is a very large amount.
> Using Ethanol makes the price of your gas $2.50 instead of $3 a gallon
> because countries have to compete with the market. Would you rather
> the money be spent on foreign countries instead of US farmers?
> Ethanol is a lot cheaper than foreign oil. And this wealth you talk
> about, if anyone is making extensive profits off of gas its the gas
> companies that are recording record profits, not agribusinesses.
>

Ethanol is slightly cheaper than gas because of the ~50 cents/gallon
subsidy given by the US gov't to ethanol producers. Without that subsidy,
ethanol would cost the same or slightly more than gas. Someday there may
be a commercially viable method to produce ethanol from sawgrass (or
something similar) that may result in ethanol that is actually cheaper
than gas, but today's corn->ethanol method results in ethanol that is
not a bargain v. gas.
--
Cheers, Bob

"84_mustang_5.0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 29, 5:11 am, Bob Willard >
> wrote:
>> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> > On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:29:05 GMT, "Deputy Dog"
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> >>I have found that my 96 GTS with a stock 4.6 2V does not like gas
>> >>with
>> >>ethanol mixed in. It pings like hell when I jump on it. Here in Pa most
>> >>generic Gas like hte crap from convienence stores has about 10% ethanol
>> >>in
>> >>it. It runs sweet on the same grade from BP-Amoco.(didn't see the
>> >>ethanol
>> >>diclaimer on their pumps though.). Any one else have a problem this the
>> >>ethanol mix?
>>
>> >>Dave
>>
>> > I'd be surprised if it's the ethanol as much as just cheap gas.
>> > Ethanol has higher octane then gas so it shouldn't ping. It does have
>> > lower energy content so you get a little less power and some people
>> > get allot worse gas mileage but I've never found it to cause pinging
>> > in any of my vehicles.
>>
>> 100% ethanol has ~70% of the energy content of gas, so a mixture of
>> 10% ethanol (and 90% gas) should result in a MPG decrease of ~3%;
>> hardly enough to notice. Likewise, the power might be down 3%, and
>> that's equally hard to notice. Further, the pumps typically state
>> "up to 10%", but I understand that the normal mixture is a lot less
>> than 10% for now.
>>
>> Ethanol is a scam IMHO, because the forced use of ethanol will do very
>> little to reduce dependence on foreign oil and the subsidies are just
>> a transfer of wealth to agribusiness, but the negative effect on car
>> MPG and power is very small at the 10% level.
>> --
>> Cheers, Bob- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ethanol is a scam? Poor Bob, do you not realize that 10% of the
> amount of foreign oil that is used in the US is a very large amount.
> Using Ethanol makes the price of your gas $2.50 instead of $3 a gallon
> because countries have to compete with the market. Would you rather
> the money be spent on foreign countries instead of US farmers?
> Ethanol is a lot cheaper than foreign oil. And this wealth you talk
> about, if anyone is making extensive profits off of gas its the gas
> companies that are recording record profits, not agribusinesses.

it takes more than 50 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of ethanol.