2000 Dakota update and further advice (Head gasket)

This piston will be at the top of the cylinder twice in each
cycle, once on the power or firing stroke, and again on
the intake stroke. HLS.
__________________________________________________ __________________

Your (sic) half right. The other TDC is on the "Exhaust" stroke, not
the "Intake" stroke. The other is called the "Compression" stroke.
On the "Power" stroke, the piston is going down. thenitedude.
__________________________________________________ __________________

HLS was right. The piston is at TDC at the beginning of the
power stroke, and again at the beginning of the intake stroke.

You're right too. The piston is at TDC at the end of the exhaust
stroke, and again at the end of the compression stroke. It's
the same information expressed in a different way.

Rodan.

On Apr 13, 7:01*pm, "Rodan" > wrote:

> HLS was right. * * The piston is at TDC at the beginning of the
> power stroke, and again at the beginning of the intake stroke.
>
> You're right too. * *The piston is at TDC at the end of the exhaust
> stroke, and again at the end of the compression stroke. * * *It's
> the same information expressed in a different way.
>
> Rodan.

No. The beginning of "Power" stroke and the "Intake" stroke is ATDC.
(After Top Dead Center)

The piston is at TDC at the beginning of the power stroke, and
again at the beginning of the intake stroke.

Rodan.
__________________________________________________ _________________

No. The beginning of "Power" stroke and the "Intake" stroke is
ATDC. (After Top Dead Center)

thenitedude.
__________________________________________________ __________________

You win, nit dude.

Rodan. <---------- Still a sucker for trolls.

On Apr 14, 3:41*am, "Rodan" > wrote:
> The piston is at TDC at the beginning of the power stroke, and
> again at the beginning of the intake stroke.
>
> *Rodan.
> __________________________________________________ _________________
>
> No. The beginning of "Power" stroke and the "Intake" stroke is
> ATDC. (After Top Dead Center) * * * * * * * * * *
>
> thenitedude.
> __________________________________________________ __________________
>
> You win, nit dude. * * * * * * * * *
>
> Rodan. * * <---------- *Still a sucker for trolls.

The spark plug hole where the plug was missing the arm was shooting
coolant through the spark plug hole when cranked. Could the missing
part of the plug be the result of the leaking head gasket. Compression
was high in this cylinder because of the water in there.



Some history, in November my brother had this truck and took it to
Midas and had the heater core replaced and coolant flushed. The next
week it got hot on him and he parked it. Next day drove to Midas and
white smoke started coming from tailpipe. Midas told me that they
started it in the engine bay and had to open the doors so much white
smoke was coming from it. They offered to buy it for 300 bucks. He
ended up giving it to me. They brought it to my house in December on a
wrecker. I started it right up off the wrecker and drove it about 200
feet to my driveway with no noises or other problems. No smoke either.
It stayed parked there until March. At that time I checked the oil and
there was coolant in it. I drained the coolant down and left the top
part of the oil in it.



I started taking it apart last week.



The piston last night looked like it had two small globulas of solder
on it. I turned the crankshaft with a wrench and the best I can tell
no cracks. (But this is a very back cylinder and it is hard to see one
side of it. The cylinder did not fill with coolant which I assume is a
good sign.



I will say one of the other pistons had black carbon in it. More so
than the rest. (This was not the cylinder with the problem.). I will
also say that while turing the crank. Some "dirt" looking specs would
get on the cylinder walls. I wiped them off with a paper towel but
they would reappear.



I was asking about how long it would last because I am debating whther
it would be best to drive this myself or sell it if I get it running.
I hate to put too much money in it but it is a nice looking truck. I
tend to keep the vehicles I have. My current truck is a Chevy 4x4 with
301,000 miles on it.



I will say the engine turned over easy with the wrench.



I am already looking at about 140 bucks to crack check, mill and do a
valve job on both heads. Another 100 bucks for a head gasket set, 60
bucks for a water pump, plus whatever spark plugs, hoses, oil, filter
and antifreeze costs.



What do you think?

> wrote in message news:a4901cb3-ee88-4378-9b52-

No. The beginning of "Power" stroke and the "Intake" stroke is ATDC.
(After Top Dead Center)

*****
And the end of compression and exhaust strokes is BTDC...before top dead
center.

At TDC, the piston is dead still between two strokes.

stryped wrote:

> Some history, in November my brother had this truck and took it to
> Midas and had the heater core replaced and coolant flushed. The next
> week it got hot on him and he parked it. Next day drove to Midas and
> white smoke started coming from tailpipe. Midas told me that they
> started it in the engine bay and had to open the doors so much white
> smoke was coming from it. They offered to buy it for 300 bucks. He
> ended up giving it to me. They brought it to my house in December on a
> wrecker. I started it right up off the wrecker and drove it about 200
> feet to my driveway with no noises or other problems. No smoke either.
> It stayed parked there until March. At that time I checked the oil and
> there was coolant in it. I drained the coolant down and left the top
> part of the oil in it.
<>
> I am already looking at about 140 bucks to crack check, mill and do a
> valve job on both heads. Another 100 bucks for a head gasket set, 60
> bucks for a water pump, plus whatever spark plugs, hoses, oil, filter
> and antifreeze costs.
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>


I would button it up and see how it runs. If it runs fine for a week, it
should run fine indefinitely. My guess is that the nits at Midas didn't
get the air out of the system and the engine probably had water in the
block but mostly air in the heads. That *should* have protected the
rings and lower block from disaster and would explain why the heads went
first. My guess is that the heads warped from basically running dry and
that's what let coolant in the combustion chamber and made the smoke cloud.

On Apr 13, 5:26*pm, Steve > wrote:
> stryped wrote:
> > Well, been working on this v6 2000 3.9 l Dakota that my brother said
> > overheated and started blowing white smoke. I have the heads off and
> > wanted to make some comments and get some advice:
>
> > 1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
> > distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
> > took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
> > sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
> > the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
> > (The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) *I actually never
> > took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
> > aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
> > or do I need to do something different?
>
> On the 3.9 "Magnum" the distributor does NOT control the timing. Just
> put it back near the mark so that the rotor is pointing to the correct
> plug tower and you'll be close. This is called the "phasing" of the
> distributor, and its not really a precision setting.
>
>
>
> > 2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
> > shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
> > head bolts need replaced?
>
> Put a straitedge along the threads and see of all the threads touch the
> straitedge. If the bolt is "necked" some threads won't touch, and
> replace it.
>
> * Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
>
> > them. DO they need to be cleaned?
>
> Its up to you. If its a thin non-flaky coating, I'd just leave it alone.
>
> Also, an old manual to another car
>
> > said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
> > contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?
>
> You can use a dab of assembly lube there (white lubriplate or similar) I
> wouldn't use a heavy chassis grease.
>
>
>
> > 3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
> > coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
> > felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
> > turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
> > disturb timing?
>
> I sure as heck would! And see above- the timing is set by a cam position
> sensor on the passenger side of the transmission bellhousing. Bolt the
> distributor down before you turn it so that the rotor drive doesn't jump
> out of its slot and so the distributor housing doesn't rotate. That'll
> save you the hassle of re-phasing the distributor later.
>
>
>
> > 4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
> > metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
> > disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
> > size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
> > Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?
>
> I'd try to get them off... but its a rather bad sign. That thing got
> HOT. The piston rings may have little or no spring tension left and it
> may just swill the oil when you get it running :-( *In fact, the very
> few 318-family engines I've heard of failing from overheating did just
> that- they lost all the ring tension and turned into oil hogs rather
> than breaking heads or blowing gaskets. of course since this one has
> coolant in the wrong places it obviously does have head damage.
>
>
>
> > 5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
> > looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
> > material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
> > might not be the head gasket?
>
> It could still be a warped head.
>
>
>
> > 6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
> > If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
> > have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
> > disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
> > leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
> > truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.
>
> I'd be very careful how much money I sunk into it... If it were mine,
> I'd ask them to check the heads for straightness and mill them if
> necessary. That usually doesn't require a hot-tanking. If they do tank
> them, they should be able to tell you if their process will damage the
> seals and guides.
>
> I'd also check the block for straightness with a straightedge as well as
> I could. Its not going to be a machine-shop quality measurement, but you
> should be able to check for any sunken or raised spots yourself.
>
>
>
> > 7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
> > I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
> > get it perfect. Will this be a problem?
>
> After what this engine has already been through, that won't be the
> deciding factor!
>
>
>
>
>
> > As always I appreciate your help!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

One thought, If I should not spend extra money on this, since I have
the heads off would it be feasible to replace the valve stem seals
myself? Is this a hard job? Also, should I lap the valves at home? Is
there a chance of scrwing something up?

I have the stuff to lap valves. I did it on an old techumseh engine I
rebuilt this winter. I would have to buy a valve spring compressor. I
can get one cheaply at harbor freight.

On Apr 14, 10:39*am, stryped > wrote:
> On Apr 13, 5:26*pm, Steve > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > stryped wrote:
> > > Well, been working on this v6 2000 3.9 l Dakota that my brother said
> > > overheated and started blowing white smoke. I have the heads off and
> > > wanted to make some comments and get some advice:
>
> > > 1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
> > > distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
> > > took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
> > > sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
> > > the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
> > > (The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) *I actually never
> > > took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
> > > aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
> > > or do I need to do something different?
>
> > On the 3.9 "Magnum" the distributor does NOT control the timing. Just
> > put it back near the mark so that the rotor is pointing to the correct
> > plug tower and you'll be close. This is called the "phasing" of the
> > distributor, and its not really a precision setting.
>
> > > 2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
> > > shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
> > > head bolts need replaced?
>
> > Put a straitedge along the threads and see of all the threads touch the
> > straitedge. If the bolt is "necked" some threads won't touch, and
> > replace it.
>
> > * Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
>
> > > them. DO they need to be cleaned?
>
> > Its up to you. If its a thin non-flaky coating, I'd just leave it alone..
>
> > Also, an old manual to another car
>
> > > said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
> > > contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?
>
> > You can use a dab of assembly lube there (white lubriplate or similar) I
> > wouldn't use a heavy chassis grease.
>
> > > 3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
> > > coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
> > > felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
> > > turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
> > > disturb timing?
>
> > I sure as heck would! And see above- the timing is set by a cam position
> > sensor on the passenger side of the transmission bellhousing. Bolt the
> > distributor down before you turn it so that the rotor drive doesn't jump
> > out of its slot and so the distributor housing doesn't rotate. That'll
> > save you the hassle of re-phasing the distributor later.
>
> > > 4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
> > > metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
> > > disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
> > > size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
> > > Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?
>
> > I'd try to get them off... but its a rather bad sign. That thing got
> > HOT. The piston rings may have little or no spring tension left and it
> > may just swill the oil when you get it running :-( *In fact, the very
> > few 318-family engines I've heard of failing from overheating did just
> > that- they lost all the ring tension and turned into oil hogs rather
> > than breaking heads or blowing gaskets. of course since this one has
> > coolant in the wrong places it obviously does have head damage.
>
> > > 5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
> > > looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
> > > material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
> > > might not be the head gasket?
>
> > It could still be a warped head.
>
> > > 6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
> > > If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
> > > have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
> > > disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
> > > leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
> > > truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.
>
> > I'd be very careful how much money I sunk into it... If it were mine,
> > I'd ask them to check the heads for straightness and mill them if
> > necessary. That usually doesn't require a hot-tanking. If they do tank
> > them, they should be able to tell you if their process will damage the
> > seals and guides.
>
> > I'd also check the block for straightness with a straightedge as well as
> > I could. Its not going to be a machine-shop quality measurement, but you
> > should be able to check for any sunken or raised spots yourself.
>
> > > 7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
> > > I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
> > > get it perfect. Will this be a problem?
>
> > After what this engine has already been through, that won't be the
> > deciding factor!
>
> > > As always I appreciate your help!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> One thought, If I should not spend extra money on this, since I have
> the heads off would it be feasible to replace the valve stem seals
> myself? Is this a hard job? Also, should I lap the valves at home? Is
> there a chance of scrwing something up?
>
> I have the stuff to lap valves. I did it on an old techumseh engine I
> rebuilt this winter. I would have to buy a valve spring compressor. I
> can get one cheaply at harbor freight.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I know have a picture of the head and gasket. Can I email to someone
on here to give me threir opinion?

"stryped" > wrote in message
news:28883aba-a4d0-449d-a994-

One thought, If I should not spend extra money on this, since I have
the heads off would it be feasible to replace the valve stem seals
myself? Is this a hard job? Also, should I lap the valves at home? Is
there a chance of scrwing something up?

I have the stuff to lap valves. I did it on an old techumseh engine I
rebuilt this winter. I would have to buy a valve spring compressor. I
can get one cheaply at harbor freight.
************
You can easily replace the stem seals on most engines. You just
take off the keepers and springs, take off the old deteriorated seals,
replace with new ones, and reassemble. (Realize that there have been
many types of seals used or upgraded onto some engines. But most
are simple "rubber" seals that are easy to remove and replace.

If the valve or seat surfaces are deeply pitted or burned, then you are
best off to let a machine shop do it. They usually cut the seats and faces
with perhaps a half to 1 degree difference in angle so that the seal will be
better
and will last longer. If you are really tight on coins, you could try it
yourself,
but I dont really recommend it.

stryped wrote:

>
> One thought, If I should not spend extra money on this, since I have
> the heads off would it be feasible to replace the valve stem seals
> myself? Is this a hard job? Also, should I lap the valves at home? Is
> there a chance of scrwing something up?
>
> I have the stuff to lap valves. I did it on an old techumseh engine I
> rebuilt this winter. I would have to buy a valve spring compressor. I
> can get one cheaply at harbor freight.

The valve stem seals are little rubber "umbrella" thingys that slide
over the valve stem and sit down inside the valve spring. They deflect
large drops of oil from hitting the top of the valve guides. In a new
engine, the metal valve guides in the head themselves do *most* of the
sealing, I've pulled non-oil-burning Mopars apart and found absolutely
nothing left of the little rubber umbrellas. The guides were doing all
the work.

They're not hard to replace, but you have to use a valve spring
compressor to remove the keepers, retainer plate, and valve spring. Do
one at a time and take your time. A new set of stem seals is pretty
cheap (bottom of this page- 5/16" size, $15.95
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/valsealloc.html)

A light lapping probably won't hurt anything, and you can inspect the
valve seat areas for cracks while you have each valve out (of course the
machine shop *should* find those for you...).