96 Buick - No Hot Start

On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:54:22 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
wrote:

>"PeterD" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:26:34 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
>> >
>> >Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
>> >temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
>> >despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
>> >coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
>> >bleeder shrader valve when depressed.
>>
>> Diagnostic... Take a bottle of cool water (a sports bottle, Poland
>> Springs, or similar).
>>
>> Get it hot, so it dies. Spray the water on various underhood items,
>> one at a time. If the ECM is underhood spray it too. Spray connectors!
>> Spray wiring harnesses!
>>
>> If the ECM is underdash, get a spray cooler can at Radio Shack (used
>> to cooler electronic circuits to find temperature related faults) and
>> spray the ECM and try again.
>>
>> One fo these two will find the heat related component.
>
>Chilling a suspect circuit board or device is an old electronics
>repairman's trick to diagnose an overheat related issue (I last
>utilized the method and discovered a faulty vertical deflection
>IC in a Sony TV). Freon, or a dielectric like Fluorinert is
>commonly used. But to employ a dipole like water and willy-
>nilly soak energized underhood electrics sounds

If you were not aware that *all* underhood components are water
resistant, you should be. I thought you were reasonably compentent so
I made the suggestion. I appologize for doing so.

You should take the vehicle to a qualified mechanic and have it fixed,
that is the only solution for your problems. Good luck.

>(to me) like
>a perfectly AWFUL recommendation (no offense intended).
>I do however appreciate your input and your latter efficacious
>suggestion, my thanx for your reply as well.
>

Snuckfoe wrote:
> "Steve W." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Snuckfoe wrote:
>>> 1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
>>>
>>> Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
>>> temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
>>> despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
>>> coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
>>> bleeder shrader valve when depressed. It will
>>> run while using starting fluid, but again stops
>>> when that spray is discontinued. It starts and
>>> runs fine again when cold. This scenario is fully
>>> repeatable everytime it reaches full temp and
>>> restarts everytime it's cold. The "service engine"
>>> light does not come on (although the bulb works
>>> and illuminates normally during the key on test)
>>> and an Auto Zone scan doesn't show any stored
>>> fault codes. I've not yet checked the fuel pump
>>> or its relay but expect those may not be the issue,
>>> although I realize the pressure COULD be too
>>> low or the relay might be losing its signal/power
>>> supply. Other guesses are that the injectors aren't
>>> receiving a signal to open or spark is occurring
>>> at the wrong time (unlikely as it neither backfires
>>> nor cranks too fast or too slow).
>>>
>>> Any advice, thoughts, opinions or experience
>>> with this type of problem that you may have to
>>> share would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanx for your time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Bad fuel pump OR pressure regulator on the fuel rail. More likely the
>> pressure regulator. Use a pressure test gauge, see what you have key ON
>> engine off, then start the engine and see where the pressure sets. Now
>> shut off the key and see if the pressure stays.
>> If the key on engine off pressure is OK (52-59PSI) it probably isn't the
>> pump, but run a capacity test just to be sure.
>>
>> --
>> Steve W.
>
>
> Yes, that method is the correct, standard procedure
> for testing both pressure and volume of the fuel
> delivery system, even in a carbureted application.


>
> However I think that in this case, evidenced by the
> sudden and repeatable onset, the issue might also be
> related to going from the open to a closed loop
> condition, seems like almost too much of a coincidence
> otherwise.
See it a lot where the regulator diaphragm splits and causes a problem.
One other small test would be to pull the vacuum line off the PR and see
if you find liquid fuel or a strong odor of fuel. You shouldn't find
either but a blown PR will sometimes show up that way.


But given Vic's knowledgeable experience
> and your sage advice (replete with specific dimensions),
> the possibility of a low pressure condition really does
> need to be eliminated as a cause of the fault as well.
> Thanx for your response.
>
>


--
Steve W.

"ben91932" > wrote in message
...
> > > Check engine light?
> > > Codes?
> > > Do you have access to a scan tool?
> >
> > Given that each of your questions was adequately
> > (in my estimation) both addressed and answered
> > in my originating post (which you "responded" to,
> > albeit sans comment,
)
> > my only question is: "could you possibly be serious?".
>
> Actually, I was.
> Good luck!
> Ben

Thanx, but despite my appreciation for some of your past
posts, I can't easily escape the notion that each of your
three replies on this subject seem to be, in my opinion,
text book examples of complete and total non sequiturs.

"PeterD" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:54:22 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
> wrote:
>
> >"PeterD" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:26:34 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
> >> >
> >> >Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
> >> >temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
> >> >despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
> >> >coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
> >> >bleeder shrader valve when depressed.
> >>
> >> Diagnostic... Take a bottle of cool water (a sports bottle, Poland
> >> Springs, or similar).
> >>
> >> Get it hot, so it dies. Spray the water on various underhood items,
> >> one at a time. If the ECM is underhood spray it too. Spray connectors!
> >> Spray wiring harnesses!
> >>
> >> If the ECM is underdash, get a spray cooler can at Radio Shack (used
> >> to cooler electronic circuits to find temperature related faults) and
> >> spray the ECM and try again.
> >>
> >> One fo these two will find the heat related component.
> >
> >Chilling a suspect circuit board or device is an old electronics
> >repairman's trick to diagnose an overheat related issue (I last
> >utilized the method and discovered a faulty vertical deflection
> >IC in a Sony TV). Freon, or a dielectric like Fluorinert is
> >commonly used. But to employ a dipole like water and willy-
> >nilly soak energized underhood electrics sounds
>
> If you were not aware that *all* underhood components are water
> resistant, you should be. I thought you were reasonably compentent so
> I made the suggestion. I appologize for doing so.

Trust me, my track record provides proof positive that
I'm significantly more than simply reasonably "compentent"
(sic). (A NEMA 1 enclosure is "water resistant" but I
certainly wouldn't recommend inundating it with a fireman's
hose or suggest its application in other flooding environments)
Anyone that would suggest pouring any electrolyte, including
water, on to an energized board or circuit CLEARLY is not
competent, and for that statement I quite unabashedly do not
"appologize"(sic).

> You should take the vehicle to a qualified mechanic and have it fixed,
> that is the only solution for your problems. Good luck.
>

You may rest assured in the most certain knowledge and
I personally guarantee that, as with every such problem I
approach (I can't recall the last time I needed to resort to
bringing ANY item to others for repair), I will yet once
again successfully effect repairs. However, allow me to
thank you nonetheless not only for the no doubt heartfelt
good luck wishes but especially for that overall snarky
tone in your passive-aggressive response ( and yes, it
entertains me no end to give at least as good as I get ;^).

"Steve W." > wrote in message
...
> Snuckfoe wrote:
> > "Steve W." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Snuckfoe wrote:
> >>> 1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
> >>>
> >>> Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
> >>> temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
> >>> despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
> >>> coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
> >>> bleeder shrader valve when depressed. It will
> >>> run while using starting fluid, but again stops
> >>> when that spray is discontinued. It starts and
> >>> runs fine again when cold. This scenario is fully
> >>> repeatable everytime it reaches full temp and
> >>> restarts everytime it's cold. The "service engine"
> >>> light does not come on (although the bulb works
> >>> and illuminates normally during the key on test)
> >>> and an Auto Zone scan doesn't show any stored
> >>> fault codes. I've not yet checked the fuel pump
> >>> or its relay but expect those may not be the issue,
> >>> although I realize the pressure COULD be too
> >>> low or the relay might be losing its signal/power
> >>> supply. Other guesses are that the injectors aren't
> >>> receiving a signal to open or spark is occurring
> >>> at the wrong time (unlikely as it neither backfires
> >>> nor cranks too fast or too slow).
> >>>
> >>> Any advice, thoughts, opinions or experience
> >>> with this type of problem that you may have to
> >>> share would be greatly appreciated.
> >>>
> >>> Thanx for your time.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Bad fuel pump OR pressure regulator on the fuel rail. More likely the
> >> pressure regulator. Use a pressure test gauge, see what you have key ON
> >> engine off, then start the engine and see where the pressure sets. Now
> >> shut off the key and see if the pressure stays.
> >> If the key on engine off pressure is OK (52-59PSI) it probably isn't
the
> >> pump, but run a capacity test just to be sure.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Steve W.
> >
> >
> > Yes, that method is the correct, standard procedure
> > for testing both pressure and volume of the fuel
> > delivery system, even in a carbureted application.
>
>
> >
> > However I think that in this case, evidenced by the
> > sudden and repeatable onset, the issue might also be
> > related to going from the open to a closed loop
> > condition, seems like almost too much of a coincidence
> > otherwise.
> See it a lot where the regulator diaphragm splits and causes a problem.
> One other small test would be to pull the vacuum line off the PR and see
> if you find liquid fuel or a strong odor of fuel. You shouldn't find
> either but a blown PR will sometimes show up that way.

Thanx again Steve, more good advice. I'll add that to my
list of things to follow up on as soon as I can return to it.


> But given Vic's knowledgeable experience
> > and your sage advice (replete with specific dimensions),
> > the possibility of a low pressure condition really does
> > need to be eliminated as a cause of the fault as well.
> > Thanx for your response.
> >
> >
>
> --
> Steve W.

"Snuckfoe" wrote:

< 1996 Buick Regal, hot start problem>

....... Trust me, my track record provides proof positive that I'm
significantly more than simply reasonably "compentent" (sic).
(A NEMA 1 enclosure is "water resistant" but I certainly wouldn't
recommend inundating it with a fireman's hose or suggest its
application in other flooding environments) Anyone that
would suggest pouring any electrolyte, including water, on to
an energized board or circuit CLEARLY is not competent, and
for that statement I quite unabashedly do not "appologize"(sic).

.........each of your questions was adequately (in my estimation)
both addressed and answered in my originating post (which
you "responded" to, albeit sans comment, my only question is:
"could you possibly be serious?".

........ despite my appreciation for some of your past posts, I can't
easily escape the notion that each of your three replies on this
subject seem to be, in my opinion, text book examples of
complete and total non sequiturs.

..... You may rest assured in the most certain knowledge and
I personally guarantee that, as with every such problem I
approach (I can't recall the last time I needed to resort to
bringing ANY item to others for repair), I will yet once
again successfully effect repairs. However, allow me to
thank you nonetheless not only for the no doubt heartfelt
good luck wishes but especially for that overall snarky
tone in your passive-aggressive response ( and yes, it
entertains me no end to give at least as good as I get ;^).
__________________________________________________ __________________

I had the same symptoms with my 96 Regal. The solution
surprised me. From your self-descriptions above, you are
obviously highly competent, as well as articulate when you
express your disgust at the competence level of those here
who dare to take the time and effort to offer suggestions.

You have an added advantage over the posters here. They
are cursed with a disease called Courtesy, and they are unable
to 'give at least as good as they get'. Your high competence
will surely lead you to the solution to your hot start problem.

Good luck.

Rodan.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:14:09 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
wrote:

>"PeterD" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:54:22 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"PeterD" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:26:34 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
>> >> >
>> >> >Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
>> >> >temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
>> >> >despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
>> >> >coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
>> >> >bleeder shrader valve when depressed.
>> >>
>> >> Diagnostic... Take a bottle of cool water (a sports bottle, Poland
>> >> Springs, or similar).
>> >>
>> >> Get it hot, so it dies. Spray the water on various underhood items,
>> >> one at a time. If the ECM is underhood spray it too. Spray connectors!
>> >> Spray wiring harnesses!
>> >>
>> >> If the ECM is underdash, get a spray cooler can at Radio Shack (used
>> >> to cooler electronic circuits to find temperature related faults) and
>> >> spray the ECM and try again.
>> >>
>> >> One fo these two will find the heat related component.
>> >
>> >Chilling a suspect circuit board or device is an old electronics
>> >repairman's trick to diagnose an overheat related issue (I last
>> >utilized the method and discovered a faulty vertical deflection
>> >IC in a Sony TV). Freon, or a dielectric like Fluorinert is
>> >commonly used. But to employ a dipole like water and willy-
>> >nilly soak energized underhood electrics sounds
>>
>> If you were not aware that *all* underhood components are water
>> resistant, you should be. I thought you were reasonably compentent so
>> I made the suggestion. I appologize for doing so.
>
>Trust me, my track record provides proof positive that
>I'm significantly more than simply reasonably "compentent"
>(sic). (A NEMA 1 enclosure is "water resistant" but I
>certainly wouldn't recommend inundating it with a fireman's
>hose or suggest its application in other flooding environments)
>Anyone that would suggest pouring any electrolyte, including
>water, on to an energized board or circuit CLEARLY is not
>competent, and for that statement I quite unabashedly do not
>"appologize"(sic).

Just WHERE did I say pour water on an energized board? Read the
message next time before replying. For an engine bay component, wash
or cool down the CASE... The OUTSIDE, don't take the thing apart and
soak it! These things are sealed, water on teh case won't hurt them.
OK?

OH and if you really must cool the board itself, that is why I
recommended a coolant spray. That wasn't hard to understand either!

>
>> You should take the vehicle to a qualified mechanic and have it fixed,
>> that is the only solution for your problems. Good luck.
>>
>
>You may rest assured in the most certain knowledge and
>I personally guarantee that, as with every such problem I
>approach (I can't recall the last time I needed to resort to
>bringing ANY item to others for repair), I will yet once
>again successfully effect repairs. However, allow me to
>thank you nonetheless not only for the no doubt heartfelt
>good luck wishes but especially for that overall snarky
>tone in your passive-aggressive response ( and yes, it
>entertains me no end to give at least as good as I get ;^).
>

At least you reply unlike some people who don't. And you can write a
reply that can be understood.

"Rodan" > wrote in message
...
> "Snuckfoe" wrote:
>
> < 1996 Buick Regal, hot start problem>
>
> ...... Trust me, my track record provides proof positive that I'm
> significantly more than simply reasonably "compentent" (sic).
> (A NEMA 1 enclosure is "water resistant" but I certainly wouldn't
> recommend inundating it with a fireman's hose or suggest its
> application in other flooding environments) Anyone that
> would suggest pouring any electrolyte, including water, on to
> an energized board or circuit CLEARLY is not competent, and
> for that statement I quite unabashedly do not "appologize"(sic).
>
> ........each of your questions was adequately (in my estimation)
> both addressed and answered in my originating post (which
> you "responded" to, albeit sans comment, my only question is:
> "could you possibly be serious?".
>
> ....... despite my appreciation for some of your past posts, I can't
> easily escape the notion that each of your three replies on this
> subject seem to be, in my opinion, text book examples of
> complete and total non sequiturs.
>
> .... You may rest assured in the most certain knowledge and
> I personally guarantee that, as with every such problem I
> approach (I can't recall the last time I needed to resort to
> bringing ANY item to others for repair), I will yet once
> again successfully effect repairs. However, allow me to
> thank you nonetheless not only for the no doubt heartfelt
> good luck wishes but especially for that overall snarky
> tone in your passive-aggressive response ( and yes, it
> entertains me no end to give at least as good as I get ;^).
> __________________________________________________ __________________
>
> I had the same symptoms with my 96 Regal. The solution
> surprised me.

Really? Did you catch the name of the "astrophysicist" that
repaired it for you?

> From your self-descriptions above, you are
> obviously highly competent, as well as articulate when you
> express your disgust at the competence level of those here
> who dare to take the time and effort to offer suggestions.

And pray tell, just which incompetent yet pretentiously
authoritative post did I undeservedly not honor, chastize
or poke fun at that so riled your sanctimonious sensibilities?

> You have an added advantage over the posters here. They
> are cursed with a disease called Courtesy, and they are unable
> to 'give at least as good as they get'. Your high competence
> will surely lead you to the solution to your hot start problem.

Coming from someone of your ilk, that's high ersatz
praise indeed and certainly most spuriously reassuring.

> Good luck.

I rely very little upon and luck plays and resultingly has
an exceedingly small role in the problems I encounter
and resolve.

> Rodan.

What a truly stultifying display of inept editing, cutting and
pasting. Would you care to next try your hand at leading
the class in finger painting? And although your "analysis"
genuinely epitomizes the type of reply that doesn't begin
to warrant the dignity of a response, I'll give thanks just
the same for your supercilious assessment. It's possibly
much appreciated, but by whom, and in keeping with
the spirit of your own inimitable style, I'll confess that I
haven't the slightest clue.

"PeterD" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:14:09 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
> wrote:
>
> >"PeterD" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:54:22 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"PeterD" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On Sun, 17 May 2009 18:26:34 -0500, "Snuckfoe" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >1996 Buick Regal, 3.8L NA, ~ 85K Miles
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Starts and runs fine until fully warm (approx. 1/4
> >> >> >temp. sweep range), then dies and won't restart
> >> >> >despite cranking fast (normal), having spark (at
> >> >> >coil pack secondaries) and fuel sprays at rail
> >> >> >bleeder shrader valve when depressed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Diagnostic... Take a bottle of cool water (a sports bottle, Poland
> >> >> Springs, or similar).
> >> >>
> >> >> Get it hot, so it dies. Spray the water on various underhood items,
> >> >> one at a time. If the ECM is underhood spray it too. Spray
connectors!
> >> >> Spray wiring harnesses!
> >> >>
> >> >> If the ECM is underdash, get a spray cooler can at Radio Shack (used
> >> >> to cooler electronic circuits to find temperature related faults)
and
> >> >> spray the ECM and try again.
> >> >>
> >> >> One fo these two will find the heat related component.
> >> >
> >> >Chilling a suspect circuit board or device is an old electronics
> >> >repairman's trick to diagnose an overheat related issue (I last
> >> >utilized the method and discovered a faulty vertical deflection
> >> >IC in a Sony TV). Freon, or a dielectric like Fluorinert is
> >> >commonly used. But to employ a dipole like water and willy-
> >> >nilly soak energized underhood electrics sounds
> >>
> >> If you were not aware that *all* underhood components are water
> >> resistant, you should be. I thought you were reasonably compentent so
> >> I made the suggestion. I appologize for doing so.
> >
> >Trust me, my track record provides proof positive that
> >I'm significantly more than simply reasonably "compentent"
> >(sic). (A NEMA 1 enclosure is "water resistant" but I
> >certainly wouldn't recommend inundating it with a fireman's
> >hose or suggest its application in other flooding environments)
> >Anyone that would suggest pouring any electrolyte, including
> >water, on to an energized board or circuit CLEARLY is not
> >competent, and for that statement I quite unabashedly do not
> >"appologize"(sic).
>
> Just WHERE did I say pour water on an energized board?

Oh, I doin't know, perhaps "Spray the water on various
underhood items, one at a time. If the ECM is underhood
spray it too. Spray connectors! Spray wiring harnesses"?
What were you proposing, soaking each of these items
individually and allowing them enough time to thoroughly
air dry before checking to see if the suggested technique
had the desired results? And why the sudden umbrage
taken when I had already formerly remarked: "But to
employ a dipole like water and willy-nilly soak energized
underhood electrics sounds (to me) like a perfectly
AWFUL recommendation ..." Engine compartments,
connectors, wiring harnesses ... are far better sealed
now than they were when I was wrenching for a living,
but I still wouldn't wash one down without first carefully
covering critical vulnerable components, blowing it down,
and in some manner thoroughly drying before allowing
the engine to be cranked again.

> Read the
> message next time before replying.

Might I be so bold as to recommend you do the same
careful perusing of that which is presented to you prior
to taking others remarks to task.

> For an engine bay component, wash
> or cool down the CASE... The OUTSIDE, don't take the thing apart and
> soak it! These things are sealed, water on teh case won't hurt them.
> OK?
>
> OH and if you really must cool the board itself, that is why I
> recommended a coolant spray. That wasn't hard to understand either!

Neither should this comment have been difficult to understand:
"Chilling a suspect circuit board or device is an old electronics
repairman's trick to diagnose an overheat related issue (I last
utilized the method and discovered a faulty vertical deflection
IC in a Sony TV). Freon, or a dielectric like Fluorinert is
commonly used." I'm hardly reading comprehension challenged
nor am I exactly a novice.

> >> You should take the vehicle to a qualified mechanic and have it fixed,
> >> that is the only solution for your problems. Good luck.
> >
> >You may rest assured in the most certain knowledge and
> >I personally guarantee that, as with every such problem I
> >approach (I can't recall the last time I needed to resort to
> >bringing ANY item to others for repair), I will yet once
> >again successfully effect repairs. However, allow me to
> >thank you nonetheless not only for the no doubt heartfelt
> >good luck wishes but especially for that overall snarky
> >tone in your passive-aggressive response ( and yes, it
> >entertains me no end to give at least as good as I get ;^).
> >
>
> At least you reply unlike some people who don't. And you can write a
> reply that can be understood.

I thank you for the courtesy of responding and, where
applicable, your gracious offerings of assistance as well. ;^)

Rodan wrote:

Your advantage over posters here is that they are
cursed with a disease called Courtesy, and they are
unable to 'give at least as good as they get'.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Snuckfoe wrote:

Really? Did you catch the name of the "astrophysicist" that repaired it
for you? And pray tell, just which incompetent yet pretentiously
authoritative post did I undeservedly not honor, chastize or poke fun
at that so riled your sanctimonious sensibilities? Coming from
someone of your ilk, that's high ersatz praise indeed and certainly
most spuriously reassuring. I rely very little upon and luck plays
and resultingly has an exceedingly small role in the problems I encounter
and resolve. What a truly stultifying display of inept editing, cutting
and pasting. Would you care to next try your hand at leading the class
in finger painting? And although your "analysis" genuinely epitomizes
the type of reply that doesn't begin to warrant the dignity of a response,
I'll give thanks just the same for your supercilious assessment. It's
possibly much appreciated, but by whom, and in keeping with the spirit
of your inimitable style, I'll confess that I haven't the slightest clue.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

Obviously.

Rodan.