2000 Dakota update and further advice (Head gasket)

Well, been working on this v6 2000 3.9 l Dakota that my brother said
overheated and started blowing white smoke. I have the heads off and
wanted to make some comments and get some advice:

1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
(The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) I actually never
took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
or do I need to do something different?

2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
head bolts need replaced? Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
them. DO they need to be cleaned? Also, an old manual to another car
said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?

3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
disturb timing?

4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?

5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
might not be the head gasket?

6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.

7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
get it perfect. Will this be a problem?

As always I appreciate your help!

stryped > wrote:
>
>1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
>distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
>took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
>sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
>the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
>(The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) I actually never
>took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
>aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
>or do I need to do something different?

It will matter a lot. You may need to remove the distributor to get
everything lined up right.

>2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
>shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
>head bolts need replaced? Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
>them. DO they need to be cleaned? Also, an old manual to another car
>said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
>contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?

It's an old engine, you don't need any assembly lube. Cleaning won't
hurt anything, though.

The manual for the engine will tell you if you need to replace the head
bolts or not. Some engines have bolts that are intended to expand when
torqued by a controlled amount and the bolts cannot be reused. Some
engines do not. I don't know about yours.

>3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
>coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
>felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
>turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
>disturb timing?

It wouldn't hurt to look at it. Move it back and make sure all the
notches line up afterward, though. On the other hand, if you did see
something wrong, could you do anything about it? If you can't do anything
to fix it, why look for it?

>4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
>metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
>disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
>size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
>Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?

It's not really bad but it's certainly not a sign of a happy engine. Try
using dykes or horizontal cutters to try and get the pieces off.

>5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
>looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
>material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
>might not be the head gasket?

It's not a sure sign of anything.

>6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
>If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
>have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
>disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
>leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
>truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.

Ask the shop. Personally, if the engine has 151k on it, it's probably
due for valve seals soon. But I'd be reluctant to do anything you don't
have to do until you know the block is good.

>7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
>I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
>get it perfect. Will this be a problem?

You'll know soon enough.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Apr 13, 9:47*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> stryped > wrote:
>
> >1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
> >distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
> >took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
> >sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
> >the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
> >(The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) *I actually never
> >took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
> >aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
> >or do I need to do something different?
>
> It will matter a lot. *You may need to remove the distributor to get
> everything lined up right.
>
> >2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
> >shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
> >head bolts need replaced? Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
> >them. DO they need to be cleaned? Also, an old manual to another car
> >said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
> >contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?
>
> It's an old engine, you don't need any assembly lube. *Cleaning won't
> hurt anything, though.
>
> The manual for the engine will tell you if you need to replace the head
> bolts or not. *Some engines have bolts that are intended to expand when
> torqued by a controlled amount and the bolts cannot be reused. *Some
> engines do not. *I don't know about yours.
>
> >3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
> >coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
> >felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
> >turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
> >disturb timing?
>
> It wouldn't hurt to look at it. *Move it back and make sure all the
> notches line up afterward, though. *On the other hand, if you did see
> something wrong, could you do anything about it? *If you can't do anything
> to fix it, why look for it?
>
> >4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
> >metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
> >disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
> >size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
> >Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?
>
> It's not really bad but it's certainly not a sign of a happy engine. *Try
> using dykes or horizontal cutters to try and get the pieces off.
>
> >5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
> >looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
> >material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
> >might not be the head gasket?
>
> It's not a sure sign of anything.
>
> >6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
> >If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
> >have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
> >disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
> >leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
> >truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.
>
> Ask the shop. *Personally, if the engine has 151k on it, it's probably
> due for valve seals soon. *But I'd be reluctant to do anything you don't
> have to do until you know the block is good.
>
> >7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
> >I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
> >get it perfect. Will this be a problem?
>
> You'll know soon enough.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

How do I go about making sure this engine is timed right? The
distributor has not been moved much.

"stryped" > wrote in message
news:f096d184-d95d-48df-a614-

How do I go about making sure this engine is timed right? The
distributor has not been moved much.

***********
Sometimes this will surprise you..."Not much" can be a lot.

Dont get upset about this. You have done nothing that cant be sorted out.

You can do a "static timing" to get you very near the right timing.
To do this, you get the #1 cylinder piston to TOP DEAD CENTER (TDC) on the
firing
stroke.

Nota Bene: This piston will be at the top of the cylinder twice in each
cycle, once on the
power or firing stroke, and again on the intake stroke. --Both will show
to be TDC on
the crankshaft pulley marker so clearly that alone cannot be used.

Since you havent moved the distributor much, you can probably pull the
piston to the top,
and look at the inside of the distributor. The pointer should be pointing
exactly toward the
cable tower that services the #1 cylinder. If it is 180 degrees off, then
you are not on TDC
firing stroke. Rotate the crankshaft to the next occurance of the piston
being at the top of
the cylinder and see if that brings them into alignment.

Now, if you have gotten the camshaft out of time, you will also have to
correct that. It
probably wont apply to you, but it can if you have overhead camshafts, or a
broken timing
chain or belt, etc.

When you get the engine back together, you can finish up the ignition
timing.

On Apr 13, 1:23*pm, "HLS" > wrote:
> "stryped" > wrote in message
>
> news:f096d184-d95d-48df-a614-
>
> How do I go about making sure this engine is timed right? The
> distributor has not been moved much.
>
> ***********
> Sometimes this will surprise you..."Not much" can be a lot.
>
> Dont get upset about this. *You have done nothing that cant be sorted out.
>
> You can do a "static timing" to get you very near the right timing.
> To do this, you get the #1 cylinder piston to TOP DEAD CENTER (TDC) on the
> firing
> stroke.
>
> Nota Bene: *This piston will be at the top of the cylinder twice in each
> cycle, once on the
> power or firing stroke, and again on the intake stroke. * --Both will show
> to be TDC on
> the crankshaft pulley marker so clearly that alone cannot be used.
>
> Since you havent moved the distributor much, you can probably pull the
> piston to the top,
> and look at the inside of the distributor. *The pointer should be pointing
> exactly toward the
> cable tower that services the #1 cylinder. *If it is 180 degrees off, then
> you are not on TDC
> firing stroke. * Rotate the crankshaft to the next occurance of the piston
> being at the top of
> the cylinder and see if that brings them into alignment.
>
> Now, if you have gotten the camshaft out of time, you will also have to
> correct that. It
> probably wont apply to you, but it can if you have overhead camshafts, or a
> broken timing
> chain or belt, etc.
>
> When you get the engine back together, you can finish up the ignition
> timing.

Can I bring the piston to TDC with the heads off? Then adjust the
distributor so the rotor is pointing at number 1 cylinder?

On Apr 13, 2:23*pm, "HLS" > wrote:

> Nota Bene: *This piston will be at the top of the cylinder twice in each
> cycle, once on the
> power or firing stroke, and again on the intake stroke.

Your half right. The other TDC is on the "Exhaust" stroke, not the
"Intake" stroke. The other is called the "Compression" stroke. On the
"Power" stroke, the piston is going down.

"stryped" > wrote in message
news:2c0e3e3c-c65e-4ecf-ac49-

Can I bring the piston to TDC with the heads off? Then adjust the
distributor so the rotor is pointing at number 1 cylinder?

**********
Not exactly, but close. At indicated TDC, the rotor will point either at
cylinder 1, or cylinder 4.. (I think..I show the firing order for similar
year
V6's to be 1-6-5-4-3-2)

What is the difference? You will have two configurations at which piston
1 will be TDC, one is correct and the other very much isn't.

So if you know for darn sure that the distributor has not been moved much
at all, you can bring cylinder 1 to TDC and then open the distributor cap
and
see where it is pointing. If it is nearly on 1, you can assume that you
are on
the correct stroke.. However is you are pointing more toward cylinder 4,
this would indicate you are on the wrong stroke, and you need to advance the
engine until the piston once again rises to the top of the cylinder.

> wrote in message
...
On Apr 13, 2:23 pm, "HLS" > wrote:

> Nota Bene: This piston will be at the top of the cylinder twice in each
> cycle, once on the
> power or firing stroke, and again on the intake stroke.

Your half right. The other TDC is on the "Exhaust" stroke, not the
"Intake" stroke. The other is called the "Compression" stroke. On the
"Power" stroke, the piston is going down.****

Maybe I botched that.. My intentions were honorable.

There are four strokes for this type of engine.

Intake
Compression
Power
Exhaust.

The 1 TDC firing position is between the compression and power strokes.
The wrong position is between the exhaust and the intake (for timing
purposes).

At TDC you are maybe between strokes?

stryped wrote:
> Well, been working on this v6 2000 3.9 l Dakota that my brother said
> overheated and started blowing white smoke. I have the heads off and
> wanted to make some comments and get some advice:
>
> 1: This is the first time I have worked on a dodge. I thought the
> distributor would need to come out in order to take the intake off. I
> took off the mounting clamp for the distributor. I made a mark with a
> sharpie on the "plate" that is on top of the distributor base below
> the rotor. I made the mark in the direction the rotor was pointing.
> (The best I could, it was hard to see back there.) I actually never
> took the distributor out. When putting this back together, can I just
> aline the rotor with this mark. If it is off a 1/4 inch will it matter
> or do I need to do something different?

On the 3.9 "Magnum" the distributor does NOT control the timing. Just
put it back near the mark so that the rotor is pointing to the correct
plug tower and you'll be close. This is called the "phasing" of the
distributor, and its not really a precision setting.

>
> 2: I took all head bolts out and pushrods and punched holes in two
> shoeboxes to store them to keep them in order. How do I tell if the
> head bolts need replaced?

Put a straitedge along the threads and see of all the threads touch the
straitedge. If the bolt is "necked" some threads won't touch, and
replace it.

Also, the push rods had a clack coating on
> them. DO they need to be cleaned?

Its up to you. If its a thin non-flaky coating, I'd just leave it alone.

Also, an old manual to another car
> said to put grease on the top of the pushrod the area the rocker arm
> contacts. Is this good advice or will it block oil flow?

You can use a dab of assembly lube there (white lubriplate or similar) I
wouldn't use a heavy chassis grease.

>
> 3. The back piston where I had high compression and was blowing
> coolant out the spark plug hole was about two inches from the top. I
> felt around and used a mirror and did not see anything wrong. Should I
> turn the engine over so I can inspect the rest of the bore? Will this
> disturb timing?

I sure as heck would! And see above- the timing is set by a cam position
sensor on the passenger side of the transmission bellhousing. Bolt the
distributor down before you turn it so that the rotor drive doesn't jump
out of its slot and so the distributor housing doesn't rotate. That'll
save you the hassle of re-phasing the distributor later.
>
> 4: On this same piston there are two areas where a small "glob" of
> metal apparently attached to the piston. In this same cylinder during
> disassembly, the spark plug gap arm was missing. They are about the
> size of a baby asprin. I could not pry them loose with my finger.
> Should I try a razor blade? Is this really bad?

I'd try to get them off... but its a rather bad sign. That thing got
HOT. The piston rings may have little or no spring tension left and it
may just swill the oil when you get it running :-( In fact, the very
few 318-family engines I've heard of failing from overheating did just
that- they lost all the ring tension and turned into oil hogs rather
than breaking heads or blowing gaskets. of course since this one has
coolant in the wrong places it obviously does have head damage.

>
> 5: I am not sure if I am looking for is right but the head gasket
> looked alright to me. There were no "blown out" areas where gasket
> material was missing between cylinders or anything. Does this mean it
> might not be the head gasket?

It could still be a warped head.
>
> 6: Lastly, I am going to have a shop mill and crack check the heads.
> If they hot tank them, will this mess up the valve seals? Should I
> have them replaced? This engine has about 151,000 and ran ok when
> disassembled other than the overhweatign and smoke assumed from a
> leaking head gasket and anti freeze in the intake. I may drive this
> truck if it runs or sell it, not sure.

I'd be very careful how much money I sunk into it... If it were mine,
I'd ask them to check the heads for straightness and mill them if
necessary. That usually doesn't require a hot-tanking. If they do tank
them, they should be able to tell you if their process will damage the
seals and guides.

I'd also check the block for straightness with a straightedge as well as
I could. Its not going to be a machine-shop quality measurement, but you
should be able to check for any sunken or raised spots yourself.
>
> 7: Oh, one last thing, some "leaf" material fell into the engine when
> I took the intake off. I vacuumed it as much as I could but did not
> get it perfect. Will this be a problem?

After what this engine has already been through, that won't be the
deciding factor!
>
> As always I appreciate your help!

HLS wrote:
>
> "stryped" > wrote in message
> news:f096d184-d95d-48df-a614-
>
> How do I go about making sure this engine is timed right? The
> distributor has not been moved much.
>
> ***********
> Sometimes this will surprise you..."Not much" can be a lot.
>

Not in this case, since the crank position sensor sets the timing, not
the distributor ;-)

But you do have to get it phased right, and your procedure that you
outlined should be plenty for that. To tell the difference between TDC
on the exhaust stroke (not the one you want) and TDC on compression (the
one you do want) with the heads off, look at the camshaft lobes for
cylinder #1. TDC @ exhaust will have the exhaust valve just closing and
the intake valve just opening. TDC on compression will have both cam
lobes pointed generally away from the lifters and will have both valves
closed.