Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:00:42 AM UTC-10, John Harmon wrote:
> Practical advice (helpful hints & suggestions) requested from those of you
> who have successfully checked camber at home (to sufficient accuracy).
>
> If you have never checked your automotive alignment camber at home, you
> probably won't be able to add much practical value to this thread; however
> if you have actually measured your wheel camber with sufficient accuracy at
> home, you almost certainly can add valuable pragmatic hints to this thread
> (such that we'll all learn from your experience).
>
> I am researching whether automotive alignment camber quick checks are yet
> possible to a reasonable degree of accuracy using a free app on a common
> mobile device (either iOS or Android, both of which I own).
>
> A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home
> where some of those articles used mobile phone apps
> (e.g., XXXXXX)
>
> Here I am just asking for advice from those of you who have successfully
> checked your camber at home using your smartphone to measure the angles to
> sufficient accuracy.
>
> To find apps which measure angles to sufficient accuracy, I have already
> run a variety of Google searches of the general form:
> 1. review best ios free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate
> 2. review best android free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate
>
> Some hits from the iOS searches are as follows:
> A. Wheel Align for ALiSENSOR Wheel By Gloi AB
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/whee...or/id513879710
> B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Inc.
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ihan...ee/id299852753
> C. Clinometer + bubble level + slope finder (3 in 1) By Peter Breitling
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clin...el/id286215117
>
> Some hits from the Android searches are as follows:
> A. Clinometer + bubble level By plaincode
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.clinometer
> B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Ltd.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...arpenter.level
> C. Angle Meter PRO By nakhon phagdeechat
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....anglemeterpro
>
> The amount of useless responses to this thread can be minimized simply by
> asking those who don't care to or who haven't ever successfully checked
> their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell
> us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up
> this thread to make it harder to be useful to others).
>
> However, if you have ever attempted to check your camber at home using a
> smart phone angle measuring tool, your insight, hints, and advice would be
> greatly appreciated (and would be generally useful to many people).

Evidently, camber ain't that important. Lots of folks run with camber that's a little off. It's a heck of a lot of fun!

http://store.underwrapsautomotive.co...ccord-8g-1.jpg

tlvp wrote:

> John Harmon wrote:
>
>> I am confused
>
> Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always
> spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column
> of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either

Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass
chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an
inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be
high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a
joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby.

The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6
minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for
other angles, so even they would be marginal.

On 10/12/2016 5:17 AM, John Harmon wrote:
> nospam actually said:
>
>>> But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
>>> almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.
>>
>> not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.
>
> This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to:
> http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...eel-alignment/
>
> Here's how they measured toe-in, for example:
> http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...ring_box. jpg
>
> Notice they measured toe in linear measurements.
>
You might find these links useful

http://tinyurl.com/jdas8oy
http://tinyurl.com/jud2p3b

Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and
adjust if required.

HTH

--

Xeno

First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.

Mahatma Ghandi

On 12/9/2016 12:14 PM, John Harmon wrote:
> actually said:
>
>> The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over
>> 7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app..
>
> This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in
> this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an
> accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly).
>
> How did you find that out though?
>
>> The "rigid" level
>> application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you
>> reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can
>> through your accuracy off. A trammel type setup made from a straight
>> bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to
>> reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion,
>> will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can
>> determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with
>> the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the
>> reading is the same with the wheel turned.
>
> I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target
> (within the stated accuracies, all of which add up).
>
> Here's an example of a camber jig for home use:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
>
> Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.
The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.
Mikek

>
>> WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of
>> accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car
>> back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension.
>
> This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and
> forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates
> under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted.
>
>> A
>> professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide
>> in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the
>> car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension.
>
> This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for
> measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely.
> http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...ics/align3.jpg
>
>> I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to
>> verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central
>> Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot.
>
> The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level
> might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees
> anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png
>
> In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things:
>
> 1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative
> 2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward)
>
> Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and
> then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward.
>
> But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be
> easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today:
> http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/20...-camber-gauge/
>

posted for all of us...


>
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:35 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
> > wrote:
>
> >tlvp actually said:
> >
> >> You need a cataly$t, and a good front end man. Bring your vehicle to the
> >> front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
> >> and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
> >> result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").
> >
> >Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged.
> >
> >That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing.
> >
> >I remain as uneducated as before.
> You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and
> understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your
> problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust -
> combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes
> along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure
> out)

+1 and gaining BMW=$$$

--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...


>
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:33 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
> > wrote:
>
> >amdx actually said:
> >
> >>> That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
> >>> to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
> >> A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel.
> >
> >I agree that, for our purposes, we should assume I jury rig a jig of some
> >sort so that there is a flat completely perpendicular plate bolted onto the
> >axle somehow (probably placed on the outside of the wheels using the lug
> >bolts or lug nuts).
> >
> >>> Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
> >>>
> >> No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees.
> >
> >Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
> >respectively.
> >
> >But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
> That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5
> miles.......
> You REALLY need to study your high-school math.

+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for
less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.

Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred
settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically
named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any
curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period.
Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the
trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your
partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all
pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire
pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting
something...

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 16:25:35 -0500, Tekkie® >
wrote:

posted for all of us...
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:33 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >amdx actually said:
>> >
>> >>> That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
>> >>> to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
>> >> A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel.
>> >
>> >I agree that, for our purposes, we should assume I jury rig a jig of some
>> >sort so that there is a flat completely perpendicular plate bolted onto the
>> >axle somehow (probably placed on the outside of the wheels using the lug
>> >bolts or lug nuts).
>> >
>> >>> Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
>> >>>
>> >> No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees.
>> >
>> >Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
>> >respectively.
>> >
>> >But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
>> That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5
>> miles.......
>> You REALLY need to study your high-school math.
>
>+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for
>less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.
>
>Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred
>settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically
>named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any
>curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period.
>Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the
>trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your
>partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all
>pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire
>pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting
>something...

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a
troll. There is some very simple math involved here.

In article >, Bill Vanek
> wrote:

> >> >
> >> >But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
> >> That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5
> >> miles.......
> >> You REALLY need to study your high-school math.
> >
> >+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for
> >less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.
> >
> >Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred
> >settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically
> >named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any
> >curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period.
> >Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the
> >trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your
> >partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all
> >pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire
> >pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting
> >something...
>
> I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a
> troll.

could be both.

> There is some very simple math involved here.

and some common sense.

posted for all of us...


>
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
> > wrote:
>
> >tlvp actually said:
> >
> >> Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
> >> An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp
> >
> >I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because
> >I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone).
> >
> >The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of
> >doing toe at home.
> >
> >For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement
> >tools we're exploring measure in degrees.
> >
> >We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of
> >a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement
> >b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy
> >c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device
> >
> >The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in
> >degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end
> >(which is obvious to all).
> >
> >However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this
> >layman's chart, for a similar vehicle:
> >http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html
> >
> >Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of:
> >Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
> >Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
> >Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16"
> >
> >As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the
> >centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a
> >single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline*
> >of the vehicle?
> No you can not. Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
> front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2.
> The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the
> toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe.. The toe
> per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle
> and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so
> the car goes straight when the wheel is centered.
>
> The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is
> essentially what you are setting. You are setting the angular
> relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car. A
> linear measurement is not an accurate specification because differen
> diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the
> neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear
> measurement, but not the angular measurement.
> If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on
> calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy
> BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet,
> prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point.
>
> But I'm wasting my breath - You've been told this several times and it
> has not gortten through to you. Stop being a cheap-assed wannabee,
> find a good mechanic - and TRUST HIM. Pay him what the job is worth.
> If you can't afford to proain a bimmer, drive a bloody Chevy!!

Letz see up to +127 ?

--
Tekkie

nospam posted for all of us...


>
> In article >, John Harmon
> > wrote:
>
> > My japanese vehicle never breaks.
>
> buy another
>
> > My bimmer always breaks.
>
> sell it or give it away

Yeah, some single mother needs this to stimulate the economy.

--
Tekkie