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#51
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaustmanifold
On 08/05/2018 11:30 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> The only mod I make is the trivial one that makes the cap child proof. > I just cut off the tap or remove the clip. But, but, but.... It's for the children... https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr814 Fortunately I don't have to deal with CARB, just stupid California ideas that escape from the state. |
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#52
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 5 Aug 2018 20:51:15 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
> If it glows it can warp. I;ve seen a lot of rotors glowing red - and > a few almost orange hot - - you could see the glow in daylight. I don't take anything at face value - I look things up. However, I am not a metallurgist, so I first admit I didn't know if a rotor "can" or "cannot" truly warp (as in potato chip) at street speeds - so I looked up a few things about the temperature needed to cause true warpage of a cast-iron rotor... Raybestos says: "Brake rotors do not warp from heat..." <http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1787> This says: "Rotors are cast in extreme heat ¡X three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically ¡§warping¡¨ a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat, which is impossible." <http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/> This says: "...the temperature required to make metal that resilient soft enough to simply bend would be tremendous." <https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/why-do-brake-rotors-warp> This says that there are adverse effects starting at 1200dF: "When this local temperature reaches around 1200 or 1300 degrees F. the cast iron under the deposit begins to transform into cementite (an iron carbide in which three atoms of iron combine with one atom of carbon). Cementite is very hard, very abrasive and is a poor heat sink. If severe use continues the system will enter a self-defeating spiral - the amount and depth of the cementite increases with increasing temperature and so does the brake roughness." <https://alconkits.com/technical-info/brake-tech/56-the-myth-of-warped-brake-discs> This says: "in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s ¡V one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc." <http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths> These say the myth of warped rotors started in the 1970's: <http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-tech-feature-8-myths-that-could-be-holding-you-back-from-performing-the-best-brake-job/> <https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/> This non-scientific thread, which we can quickly assume isn't scientific so let's just take it as a reasonable point of view only, says that the surface may get to 600dF but the rest of the rotor is at a lower temperature than the surface. <https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/3dxoli/the_myth_of_brake_rotor_warping/> I know you guys hate me for "book knowledge", but the answer on temperature seems pretty clear so I will argue no further unless actual references are supplied, as I already know tons of people *think* rotors warp, but it seems that anyone who has actually measured it, apparently thinks not (where true warpage would be easy to measure if you have the equipment to measure head warp). |
#53
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 6 Aug 2018 07:16:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:
> But, but, but.... It's for the children... > > https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr814 > > Fortunately I don't have to deal with CARB, just stupid California ideas > that escape from the state. I do think about things, before, during, and after I do them. Life isn't without risks (e.g., nobody would own a chainsaw, if it was). Whenever CARB tells me I shouldn't "modify" the can, I remind them over the phone that they shouldn't have modified the gas can, which was working just fine. All we're doing is making it work for the job its intended to do. I don't mind the gas staying inside the can. It's the fact the gas doesn't come out that I mind. To that end, I never use the spout (it's just a cap) for filling vehicles. Besides, hefting five or six gallons and pouring for a few minutes into a modern day vehicle isn't as easy as one might think. The funnel has to be deep enough to flip the spring-operated lid and you have to hold the can well above that so that it won't drip. What I do is a simple two-step process. a. Using a hose, I siphon almost all the gas into the vehicle, and, then, b. Using a modified funnel, I pour the remaining dribble into the tank. The reason for the second step isn't so much to get the gas, as it's only a dribble since the pipe keeps the hose in the bottom corner where the wood ramp keeps the gas just slightly elevated to put all the liquid into that corner. The reason for the second step is simply emissions. All that dribble will vaporize, at about 22 psi (depending on temperature) vapor pressure. If I lock the cap tightly, that vapor will NOT get into the atmosphere UNTIL I open the cap, and then virtually all of that gas WILL go into the atmosphere. There's no way around that, other than to pour all that dribble into the gas tank of the car while it's still liquid. Plus, the vapor pressure of even 22 psi will bulge out the gas can (which they can handle with aplomb, but why bother - I just spend an extra 30 seconds per gas can shaking out the liquid droplets - as an emissions amelioration only). That's the only reason the wide-mouthed funnel is needed. It's modified to be longer than most funnels are simply by the addition of a flexible hose on the end so that it stays inside the vehicle's gas opening so that one person can easily use it on the dribble. It's insanely easy to refuel a vehicle at home (if you have the space). My approach is so simple it's easier than filling at a gas station. 1. I park next to a tall retaining wall that meets with the garage. 2. A stepladder allows me to put the gas jugs in the flat spot at top. 3. An optional wood ramp slightly elevates the front of the gas jug. 4. A rigid sleeve keeps the hose at the back lowest corner of the jug. 5. By mouth, I siphon the liquid, always having plenty of safety time. 6. Generally I go about my business to come back about 5 minutes later. 7. About 4-1/2 minutes later, the siphoning has stopped, gas in the bend. 8. Lifting only the hose from the top, I drain the remaining liquid. 9. Using the modified funnel, I shake out the dribble from the gas can. 10. I loosely recap the can (allowing fumes to evaporate) for storage. If you can think of any step to *improve* this insanely easy process, let me know. The only improvement step that I can come up with is "delivery" and "storage" of a few hundred gallons using an electric pump from Granger (yes, I know gas has an oxidation lifetime which is longer than just a month or two). 55-gallon steel drums epoxy lined: <https://www.grainger.com/category/barrels-and-drums/barrels-drums-and-covers/drums-and-drum-handling-equipment/material-handling/ecatalog/N-1574Z1yzaej6> Electric pump for the barrels: <https://www.grainger.com/category/fuel-transfer-pumps/fuel-and-oil-transfer-pumps/pumps/ecatalog/N-11t0> Safety storage for the 5-gallon jugs: <http://www.safety1industries.com/product-reviews-blog/what-to-look-for-in-a-gas-storage-cabinet> <https://www.uline.com/Grp_451/Safety-Storage> <http://www.usasafety.com/gas-cylinder-cabinet-c-54.html> Even though it's far more convenient to refuel at home than at a gas station, I'm always looking for ways to improve the process. BTW, I used to put a rag around the top of the can, but I doubt that much gas is escaping in the 5 minutes it takes to fuel from a jug, and, even with the rag, I doubt it prevents much, if any - since - in the end - ALL the "wetness" of the inside of the gas jug will go into the atmosphere no matter what you do. |
#54
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 7 Aug 2018 01:33:18 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:
> I'll read the rest, but the abstract talks about "runout" which is a > completely different thing than warp Hi Clare, You should be warned that I'm intelligent so I can *read* a peer-reviewed scientific paper, unlike, it seems, most people, who can't comprehend what a paper says. I've read a billion of them, so, bear in mind that I can understand what the authors are trying to say, even as they use words differently than we do. Reading onward, I think the authors make a critical mistake in not defining their terms, particularly when they use the word "warp" in this sentence, which is the first time it appears in the paper... "It is known that disk warping or uneven disk thicknesses induce pulsation during brake applications." Clearly it is well known that "warp" (as in potato) and "uneven thickness" are two completely different things - which means that this particular set of Asian authors (M. W. ShinG. H. JangJ. K. KimH. Y. KimHo Jang) are likely ignorant of what "warp" means - or - they simply assume that it means something that it doesn't mean (i.e., warp and thickness variation are completely different things - they just are). They then compound their errors in a sentence not far from that last horrid sentence, saying "When the disk temperature is increased by friction heat during braking, the heat often causes dimensional instability of the disk, permanently modifying the runout or disk thickness variation (DTV) of a disk and producing brake judder." WTF? These Asian guys don't seem to comprehend the English language. It's well known that DTV and runout are two completely different things. They just are. Everyone knows that (except them). I think the reason they didn't care to use correct words is that they didn't really care about any of those things - what they cared about, it seems, was the effect of heat treating on residual stress which resulted in a less pronounced runout measurement. The end of the introduction concludes with the idiotically worded sentence: "While the disk warping during heat treatment was measured using a static DTV measurement unit..." Which clearly shows they're using the word "warp" differently than we are (simply because it's a fact that warp and DTV are two different things). It appears that Ripley and Kirstein (Ref 12) paper might be more appropriate since they showed that the relaxation of the residual stress in the disk could lead to disk distortion. (We have to look at that paper to find out how they defined "disk distortion" though.) |
#55
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 7 Aug 2018 01:50:38 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:
> You should be warned that I'm intelligent so I can *read* a peer-reviewed > scientific paper, unlike, it seems, most people, who can't comprehend what > a paper says. I just posted a query to alt.usage.english as to why these particular Asian authors can't seem to comprehend the difference between "warp" and "runout" and "dtv", all of which they clearly equate in their paper - where all of them are different things. Why can't people figure out warp versus runout versus disc thickness variation <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/Gqh_4X_FSw8> Unfortunately, since the Asian authors don't even comprehend what "warp" actually means, that paper is useless for our purposes, IMHO, simply because they never once measured warpage. Not once. I completely understand how they *used* the term "warp"; but it's not the same thing that I'm talking about. What they measured was DTV and runout, and what they were caring about was how heat treating affected those due to the interaction of residual stress after subsequent heating. This article, by apparently American authors, uses the terms the way I do: http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/ Stop the Warped Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way They advise: "Starting today, remove ´warped rotor¡ from your vocabulary." Where they discuss "lateral runout" and "disc thickness variation", which are NOT the same thing as warp (as in potato). They're just not. |
#56
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaustmanifold
On 7/8/18 12:18 pm, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2018 01:50:38 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote: > >> You should be warned that I'm intelligent so I can *read* a peer-reviewed >> scientific paper, unlike, it seems, most people, who can't comprehend what >> a paper says. > > I just posted a query to alt.usage.english as to why these particular Asian > authors can't seem to comprehend the difference between "warp" and "runout" > and "dtv", all of which they clearly equate in their paper - where all of > them are different things. > Why can't people figure out warp versus runout versus disc thickness variation > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/Gqh_4X_FSw8> > > Unfortunately, since the Asian authors don't even comprehend what "warp" > actually means, that paper is useless for our purposes, IMHO, simply > because they never once measured warpage. Not once. > > I completely understand how they *used* the term "warp"; but it's not the > same thing that I'm talking about. > > What they measured was DTV and runout, and what they were caring about was > how heat treating affected those due to the interaction of residual stress > after subsequent heating. > > This article, by apparently American authors, uses the terms the way I do: > http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/ > Stop the Warped Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way > > They advise: > "Starting today, remove ´warped rotor¡ from your vocabulary." > > Where they discuss "lateral runout" and "disc thickness variation", which > are NOT the same thing as warp (as in potato). > > They're just not. > > For christ's sake, WGAF? -- Xeno "The best way to make a fire with two sticks is to make sure one of them is a match." -- Will Rogers |
#57
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaustmanifold
On 08/06/2018 09:29 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> It's insanely easy to refuel a vehicle at home (if you have the space). I've been known to refuel the bikes but since I pass three gas stations on the way to work I'm not about to start my own. |
#58
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 6 Aug 2018 20:23:09 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
> Like I said - THERMAL DISTORTION - AKA warpage. > You have a different definition? > > Rotors are GENERALLY made of grey iron - so it IS applicable. > Anything that causes movement in metal constitutes WARPAGE Hi Clare, Let's stop this nonsense. That paper clearly and obviously measured two things: a. Lateral runout b. Disc thickness variation Never once did that paper mention measurement of warp (as in potato chip). I'm OK if people suggest a paper because I love to learn, but you have to assume I'm intelligent enough to know that just googling for the word warp connected with temperature doesn't mean the paper shows *anything* about warp happening with temperature. Maybe most people here deal with people who can't comprehend what a paper says, but I can read almost any paper (I read Physics papers all the time) and if I want to, I can comprehend what they say. That paper said absolutely nothing about warp (as in potato chip). I'm not chastising you. I *appreciate* that you tried to show that the disc can get to a temperature that is hot enough to cause warp, as I had already provided multiple references which said that such temperatures are impossible in street use. It's a valid question. If someone can provide a paper that proves that such temperatures actually commonly happen, I'll *read* (and comprehend) that paper. But don't throw a paper at me that says absolutely zero about warp. (Please assume I'm intelligent enough to read & comprehend the paper.) I am NOT chastising you. I'm just telling the truth - which is that paper had nothing to do with warp even though the Korean authors used the word in the paper. They were talking about: a. Lateral runout, and, b. Disc thickness variation (among other things, like heat treating effects.) |
#59
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaust manifold
On 6 Aug 2018 20:16:21 GMT, Xeno wrote:
> For christ's sake, WGAF? WGAF? Why Give a ****? There are good reasons to give a ****, since, a) Clare suggested the paper, so I read it. b) Are you chastising me for reading Clare's reference? c) Or are you chastising me for *understanding* what it said? Similarly, I don't know how many dollars are wasted every year on people *thinking* their rotors warped, when they can't possibly warp (according to the references I provided) simply because the temperatures needed are impossible to attain for the entire rotor thickness. Let's just assume that a billion dollars a year are *wasted* by morons who can't comprehend the difference between disc thickness variation, lateral runout, and true warp. Worse - if I ever have a judder (and, at times, I do), then it matters a lot that I *know* that warp can't possibly occur - so I know that the long-term solution is not to buy "Tundra upgrades", which people spend hundreds of dollars on that common but worthless imaginary panacea all the freaking time! <http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/84240-tundra-brake-upgrade.html> This is a group that is supposed to *understand* that which we fix, right? If this group is supposed to *understand* a problem well enough to fix it, then it matters that brake rotors just don't warp (they can't get hot enough, based on the references I already quoted). If someone can show a reference that shows that brake rotos can get hot enough in street use to actually warp (as in potato chip), then I'll *read* that reference. You guys love to hate me for having "book knowledge", but having book knowledge is better than having the wrong solution isn't it? The reason it matters is that people implement the wrong solution because they can't comprehend that rotors can't get hot enough to warp in street use (according to multiple references - which hasn't been refuted by anyone here). Note, that Korean reference that Clare provided may have been translated from Korean (we don't know yet), where this seems to be a portion of the funding (apparently): 1.Department of Materials Science and EngineeringKorea University Seoul Republic of Korea 2.R&D Division Hyundai Motor Company and Kia Motors Corporation Hwaseong-si Republic of Korea |
#60
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Advice for stripped threads upstream oxygen sensor exhaustmanifold
On 7/8/18 2:08 pm, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 6 Aug 2018 20:16:21 GMT, Xeno wrote: > >> For christ's sake, WGAF? > > WGAF? > > Why Give a ****? FFSGOY <waffle snipped> -- Xeno "The best way to make a fire with two sticks is to make sure one of them is a match." -- Will Rogers |
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