starter current draw?

Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check? Is there
any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
manual does not specify.

--

OK... hopefully someone here can help me with my issue... in my '55
coupe if the car sits for any length of time, it takes a couple cranks
to get fuel up to the carburetor. Often the battery will run down
after only 3 or 4 cranks but then when I bring out a booster pack it
will start right up and run great from there on. This is a standard
'63 289 with an Avanti automatic starter on it, all stock except for
newer Carter AFB carb and MoPar electronic ignition conversion. I am
using a 12V starter solenoid with an added ballast bypass wire, and the

coil is intended for use with an external ballast (just to eliminate
the obvious questions.)


Now here's the puzzler. The starter that was on the car when I bought
it shows 300A of current draw. I found another starter (same part
number) in JP's stash and swapped it out, it also shows a high current
draw, sometimes spiking up to 400A and if you let it crank a bit it
drops down to 200A steady state. Just to check the calibration of the
meter, I tried my '62 Daytona and it draws 100A, although it has the
standard 3-pole starter not the Avanti starter. I don't know how well
that gauge is calibrated but it is clear that the Daytona's starter
does draw significantly less current than the one in the '55.


I tried setting the timing with a light (it was a couple degrees
advanced from the index) and it didn't make any difference in starter
current draw.


is this normal? Do I just need a bigger battery? (I hope not, then I
would have to find a Hawk battery tray, hold down, etc.) Or do I have
two bad starters? Anything else I ought to check before taking my
starter to the auto electric shop?


thanks,


nate

On 26 Sep 2005 05:07:32 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:

>Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
>Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
>I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
>starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check?



================================================== ==========
> Is there
>any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
>manual does not specify.

For you, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to amp the
current draw on the starter for my 2003 taurus ( merc sable ).

I'll be back:

230.9 amperes DC
U code V6 vulcan 182 cc displacement, 152 hp

Lg

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:06:22 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:

>On 26 Sep 2005 05:07:32 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:
>
>>Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
>>Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
>>I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
>>starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check?
>
>
>
>================================================= ===========
>> Is there
>>any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
>>manual does not specify.
>
>For you, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to amp the
>current draw on the starter for my 2003 taurus ( merc sable ).
>
>I'll be back:
>
>230.9 amperes DC
>U code V6 vulcan 182 cc displacement, 152 hp

make that 182 cubic inches displacement ;-))))

>
>Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
> On 26 Sep 2005 05:07:32 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:
>
> >Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
> >Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
> >I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
> >starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check?
>
>
>
> ================================================== ==========
> > Is there
> >any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
> >manual does not specify.
>
> For you, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to amp the
> current draw on the starter for my 2003 taurus ( merc sable ).
>
> I'll be back:
>
> 230.9 amperes DC
> U code V6 vulcan 182 cc displacement, 152 hp
>
> Lg

Hmm, this is making me question the accuracy of the little meter I
borrowed (some Japanese thing of unknown age that just sits on the
battery cable and has an analog movement.) Perhaps I need to invest in
a good Fluke clamp meter. (you'd think with all the money I've spent
on tools over the years I'd have everything I needed by now; you'd be
wrong.)

Seems like the battery is the prime suspect if your readings are
accurate; I can't imagine a 289 would take significantly less current
to crank over than a little V6. Granted, it's got (relatively) low
compression (8.5:1 or thereabouts) and unknown mileage, but it seems
fairly "tight" at least ring-wise, and holds good oil pressure.

I guess that also means that a battery load tester might be a good
investment... (that "giant sucking sound" you hear is the sound of my
banking account being depleted.)

Or I could just buy one of those portable jump start things and carry
it with me wherever I go... (that would be what's known as an
inelegant solution)

thanks for the input...

nate

On 26 Sep 2005 06:22:52 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:

>
>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>> On 26 Sep 2005 05:07:32 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:
>>
>> >Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
>> >Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
>> >I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
>> >starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check?
>>
>>
>>
>> ================================================== ==========
>> > Is there
>> >any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
>> >manual does not specify.
>>
>> For you, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to amp the
>> current draw on the starter for my 2003 taurus ( merc sable ).
>>
>> I'll be back:
>>
>> 230.9 amperes DC
>> U code V6 vulcan 182 cc displacement, 152 hp
>>
>> Lg
>
>Hmm, this is making me question the accuracy of the little meter I
>borrowed (some Japanese thing of unknown age that just sits on the
>battery cable and has an analog movement.) Perhaps I need to invest in
>a good Fluke clamp meter. (you'd think with all the money I've spent
>on tools over the years I'd have everything I needed by now; you'd be
>wrong.)
>
>Seems like the battery is the prime suspect if your readings are
>accurate;

Yes, I am using the Fluke-type clamp meter with the *max hold* turned
on. It is new, has never been been dropped ( handled like a baby
actually ).

It takes a number of starting cycles to get up to the maximum reading.
When the number of amperes doesn't increase anymore, but holds steady
in repeated starts, you've got the reading.

> I can't imagine a 289 would take significantly less current
>to crank over than a little V6. Granted, it's got (relatively) low
>compression (8.5:1 or thereabouts) and unknown mileage, but it seems
>fairly "tight" at least ring-wise, and holds good oil pressure.
>
>I guess that also means that a battery load tester might be a good
>investment... (that "giant sucking sound" you hear is the sound of my
>banking account being depleted.)

Yes, I have one of those also. You're right about the "giant sucking
sound" of your wallet being vacuumed dry ! ;-((((

>Or I could just buy one of those portable jump start things and carry
>it with me wherever I go... (that would be what's known as an
>inelegant solution)
>
>thanks for the input...
>
>nate

Glad to help.

Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
> On 26 Sep 2005 06:22:52 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:
>
> >
> >Lawrence Glickman wrote:
> >> On 26 Sep 2005 05:07:32 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
> >> >Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
> >> >I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
> >> >starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ================================================== ==========
> >> > Is there
> >> >any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
> >> >manual does not specify.
> >>
> >> For you, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to amp the
> >> current draw on the starter for my 2003 taurus ( merc sable ).
> >>
> >> I'll be back:
> >>
> >> 230.9 amperes DC
> >> U code V6 vulcan 182 cc displacement, 152 hp
> >>
> >> Lg
> >
> >Hmm, this is making me question the accuracy of the little meter I
> >borrowed (some Japanese thing of unknown age that just sits on the
> >battery cable and has an analog movement.) Perhaps I need to invest in
> >a good Fluke clamp meter. (you'd think with all the money I've spent
> >on tools over the years I'd have everything I needed by now; you'd be
> >wrong.)
> >
> >Seems like the battery is the prime suspect if your readings are
> >accurate;
>
> Yes, I am using the Fluke-type clamp meter with the *max hold* turned
> on. It is new, has never been been dropped ( handled like a baby
> actually ).
>
> It takes a number of starting cycles to get up to the maximum reading.
> When the number of amperes doesn't increase anymore, but holds steady
> in repeated starts, you've got the reading.
>
> > I can't imagine a 289 would take significantly less current
> >to crank over than a little V6. Granted, it's got (relatively) low
> >compression (8.5:1 or thereabouts) and unknown mileage, but it seems
> >fairly "tight" at least ring-wise, and holds good oil pressure.
> >
> >I guess that also means that a battery load tester might be a good
> >investment... (that "giant sucking sound" you hear is the sound of my
> >banking account being depleted.)
>
> Yes, I have one of those also. You're right about the "giant sucking
> sound" of your wallet being vacuumed dry ! ;-((((
>

I would far prefer the "giant sucking sound" of four hungry venturis
taking in a big slug of atmosphere through an open-element air cleaner,
but it seems you can't have one without the other

I don't think I need to mention that since a) we're talking about a 50
year old car here and b) it's mechanically completely a mutt, although
fairly well done (well, it is now after I fixed a few pretty egregious
previous-owner errors) that taking it to a mechanic is a completely
last-resort kind of proposition...

nate

> >Or I could just buy one of those portable jump start things and carry
> >it with me wherever I go... (that would be what's known as an
> >inelegant solution)
> >
> >thanks for the input...
> >
> >nate
>
> Glad to help.
>
> Lg

Back to basics, then. What are the voltage drops, measured at the
battery and at the starter terminal, with no load and during the
unsatisfactory cranking? And what are the off and vehicle-running
voltages at the battery posts?

I suspect that if it cranks fine with the booster but not with the
battery alone, that's a hint, but before condemning parts, we need to
see whether the battery is kaput or merely not getting a good charge.

His battery might or might not be good. His cables should also be
carefully checked all the way from end to end, with attention both to
the vicinity of the terminations and to how good a connection they are
making. (Don't all the best problems have more than one thing going on
at once?)

Starters are a rather specialized sort of motor that can do a huge
amount of work, relative to their size, for a short time. (Or a medium
time or a lot of short times in quick succession, if one enjoys the
financial and mechanical aspects of replacing them.) A lot of work
at low voltage means a lot of current.

I think we're usually talking about a couple hundred amps, not three or
four hundred, for automotive starters; but first I suggest he make sure
the battery is putting out the proper voltage under load, and that said
voltage is making it all the way to the starter.

See for instance
http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_traini...4.php?pf=true&
and
http://www.usautomotive.co.uk/tech/Battery.asp

Ad absurdum per aspera wrote:
> Back to basics, then. What are the voltage drops, measured at the
> battery and at the starter terminal, with no load and during the
> unsatisfactory cranking? And what are the off and vehicle-running
> voltages at the battery posts?
>
> I suspect that if it cranks fine with the booster but not with the
> battery alone, that's a hint, but before condemning parts, we need to
> see whether the battery is kaput or merely not getting a good charge.
>
> His battery might or might not be good. His cables should also be
> carefully checked all the way from end to end, with attention both to
> the vicinity of the terminations and to how good a connection they are
> making. (Don't all the best problems have more than one thing going on
> at once?)
>
> Starters are a rather specialized sort of motor that can do a huge
> amount of work, relative to their size, for a short time. (Or a medium
> time or a lot of short times in quick succession, if one enjoys the
> financial and mechanical aspects of replacing them.) A lot of work
> at low voltage means a lot of current.
>
> I think we're usually talking about a couple hundred amps, not three or
> four hundred, for automotive starters; but first I suggest he make sure
> the battery is putting out the proper voltage under load, and that said
> voltage is making it all the way to the starter.
>
> See for instance
> http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_traini...4.php?pf=true&
> and
> http://www.usautomotive.co.uk/tech/Battery.asp

To add to the info given, the battery is at about 12.1V measured with
my (ancient) Fluke with the key off, and 14.3ish running. So I don't
think that the alternator is at fault. However the 12.1 seems a little
low, but I don't have a more finely calibrated meter to check with.

Battery cables from the battery to the starter solenoid and from the
battery to the engine block are brand new 1 gauge. I did not replace
the big cable from the solenoid to the starter but it appears to be in
good shape. I suppose in the interest of completeness I ought to check
the voltage drop of that particular section of cable however.

The voltage drops to about 9-10V while cranking, again measured at the
battery. I did not check voltage drop across the solenoid or overall
from the battery to the starter simply because it wasn't convenient to
do so. I am thinking that perhaps 9V isn't enough to fire the coil
even with the ballast resistor bypass.

Now when the car has been running, it starts lightning quick. But if
it doesn't start on the first crank, it's not going to start without
the booster battery. With the booster hooked up, again, it starts
lightning quick.

I am curious about the state of the battery - it's only 6 mos. old but
it does seem to be the most likely culprit. Unfortunately I do not
have a battery load tester :/

nate

On 26 Sep 2005 10:17:20 -0700, "N8N" > wrote:

>
>Ad absurdum per aspera wrote:
>> Back to basics, then. What are the voltage drops, measured at the
>> battery and at the starter terminal, with no load and during the
>> unsatisfactory cranking? And what are the off and vehicle-running
>> voltages at the battery posts?
>>
>> I suspect that if it cranks fine with the booster but not with the
>> battery alone, that's a hint, but before condemning parts, we need to
>> see whether the battery is kaput or merely not getting a good charge.
>>
>> His battery might or might not be good. His cables should also be
>> carefully checked all the way from end to end, with attention both to
>> the vicinity of the terminations and to how good a connection they are
>> making. (Don't all the best problems have more than one thing going on
>> at once?)
>>
>> Starters are a rather specialized sort of motor that can do a huge
>> amount of work, relative to their size, for a short time. (Or a medium
>> time or a lot of short times in quick succession, if one enjoys the
>> financial and mechanical aspects of replacing them.) A lot of work
>> at low voltage means a lot of current.
>>
>> I think we're usually talking about a couple hundred amps, not three or
>> four hundred, for automotive starters; but first I suggest he make sure
>> the battery is putting out the proper voltage under load, and that said
>> voltage is making it all the way to the starter.
>>
>> See for instance
>> http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_traini...4.php?pf=true&
>> and
>> http://www.usautomotive.co.uk/tech/Battery.asp
>
>To add to the info given, the battery is at about 12.1V measured with
>my (ancient) Fluke with the key off, and 14.3ish running.

Charging circuit is doing its job...

> So I don't
>think that the alternator is at fault. However the 12.1 seems a little
>low, but I don't have a more finely calibrated meter to check with.
>
>Battery cables from the battery to the starter solenoid and from the
>battery to the engine block are brand new 1 gauge. I did not replace
>the big cable from the solenoid to the starter but it appears to be in
>good shape. I suppose in the interest of completeness I ought to check
>the voltage drop of that particular section of cable however.

================================================== ===========
>The voltage drops to about 9-10V while cranking, again measured at the
>battery.

That indicates a *weak* battery. You don't want the battery voltage
to drop below 10.4 volts whilst cranking the starter motor.

It could be you just need to charge up your battery with a battery
charger. It could be as simple as that. If you are doing a lot of
short trips around town, maybe the battery isn't getting fully
replenished by the alternator each trip and needs a nice charge in
your garage ( which I do to mine periodically, especially during the
winter months when I am running headlights, heater fan, window
defogger, etc. during short trips ).

> I did not check voltage drop across the solenoid or overall
>from the battery to the starter simply because it wasn't convenient to
>do so. I am thinking that perhaps 9V isn't enough to fire the coil
>even with the ballast resistor bypass.
>
>Now when the car has been running, it starts lightning quick. But if
>it doesn't start on the first crank, it's not going to start without
>the booster battery. With the booster hooked up, again, it starts
>lightning quick.
>
>I am curious about the state of the battery - it's only 6 mos. old but
>it does seem to be the most likely culprit. Unfortunately I do not
>have a battery load tester :/

See instructions: run hi beams 10 minutes with engine off to dump
*surface charge.* Then watch voltage across battery terminals whilst
cranking engine. Should =not= drop below 10.4 volts.

I think all you really need to do is put the battery on a charger
periodically as I do, even with my *new* used car, and you will be OK.

In the summertime I might do it once/month.

In the wintertime, if it is _really_ cold, I might just do it every
night on trickle, because of the short trips I make to the commuter
train to drop off the wife.

Lg


>nate

What is the CCA of the battery you are using? You cannot use a battery from
a 4 cylinder car in those V8 engines. They just don't deliver enough power.
Back in the 70's I had the battery go dead in my Olds. I tried umpiring from
a Vega. Wouldn't even turn it over. Get the correct size battery for the
car.



"N8N" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Copy of post to alt.autos.studebaker - car in question is a '55
> Commander coupe with '63 model 289/automatic. otherwise mostly stock.
> I did get some good responses there but they all either point to a bad
> starter or a too-small battery, anything else I should check? Is there
> any rough guidelines for how much a starter should draw? my shop
> manual does not specify.
>
> --
>
> OK... hopefully someone here can help me with my issue... in my '55
> coupe if the car sits for any length of time, it takes a couple cranks
> to get fuel up to the carburetor. Often the battery will run down
> after only 3 or 4 cranks but then when I bring out a booster pack it
> will start right up and run great from there on. This is a standard
> '63 289 with an Avanti automatic starter on it, all stock except for
> newer Carter AFB carb and MoPar electronic ignition conversion. I am
> using a 12V starter solenoid with an added ballast bypass wire, and the
>
> coil is intended for use with an external ballast (just to eliminate
> the obvious questions.)
>
>
> Now here's the puzzler. The starter that was on the car when I bought
> it shows 300A of current draw. I found another starter (same part
> number) in JP's stash and swapped it out, it also shows a high current
> draw, sometimes spiking up to 400A and if you let it crank a bit it
> drops down to 200A steady state. Just to check the calibration of the
> meter, I tried my '62 Daytona and it draws 100A, although it has the
> standard 3-pole starter not the Avanti starter. I don't know how well
> that gauge is calibrated but it is clear that the Daytona's starter
> does draw significantly less current than the one in the '55.
>
>
> I tried setting the timing with a light (it was a couple degrees
> advanced from the index) and it didn't make any difference in starter
> current draw.
>
>
> is this normal? Do I just need a bigger battery? (I hope not, then I
> would have to find a Hawk battery tray, hold down, etc.) Or do I have
> two bad starters? Anything else I ought to check before taking my
> starter to the auto electric shop?
>
>
> thanks,
>
>
> nate
>