EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/22/2015 10:08 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2015-09-22, Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>> This article is not exactly accurate.
>> ...
>
> The point is that government malfeasance, which can and does result
> in massive death, rarely if ever goes punished. I don't know how much
> additional pollution is being caused by VW diesels or if the effect
> is even measurable given their relatively low numbers. I do know that
> governments routinely lie, cheat, steal, and kill (sometimes en masse)
> all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but
> the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of
> the State.

What a goof!

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests

Apparently 11 million cars are affected!
Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html
"the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide
were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests."

Ewald Böhm wrote:

> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

How Did the System Work?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...explainer.html

On 9/22/2015 2:19 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>
>> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests
>
> Apparently 11 million cars are affected!
> Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed!
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html
> "the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide
> were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests."
>

Boggles the mind. "Oh ****, we got caught"

Jack Myers wrote:


> I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
> fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
> stationary. That seems plausible to me.
Not all dynos work that way. I would expect such a dyno to drive the
stability/ABS systems crazy, possibly SLAMMING on the brakes or other
actions. (Most cars today are FRONT wheel drive, so the case would be the
front wheels turning and the back stationary. For rear wheel drive trucks,
of course, it is the opposite case. on these, it would be VERY hard to keep
the truck on the rear wheel only dyno. If it started to drift to either
side, the steering wheel could not get the tires centered back on the
treadmill.) On such vehicles, it might be necessary to shut down the
stability/ABS systems to even do these tests, which would clue in any test
detection software.

As for how the software could tell, this gives me an idea! The dynos have
some considerable inertia, but it is likely much less that the inertia
involved in accelerating the car to 60 MPH. So, the software might detect
VERY easy acceleration to highway speed as a sign of a dyno test. This
might also look like accelerating down a long hill, but if it goes on too
long, it indicates minimal wind resistance. If you are cruising at 60 MPH
with 4 HP effort, that would be a DEAD GIVEAWAY you are on a dyno! The
emissions test dynos probably cannot absorb the output of a big car's engine
to give it the normal highway load. That can be a LOT of power that you
have to absorb for several minutes.

Jon

Jack Black wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:
>
>> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
>> emissions?
>
> http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf

WOW, that's QUITE a document!! Thanks for the link!

Jon

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:27:57 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
> > wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >
> >> I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
> >> would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
> >> caught or ratted out.
> >
> >According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.
> >
> >If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
> >the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
> >
> >They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
> >also do worse on emissions testing results).
> >
> >It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
> >think, because of those two results.
> >
> >Do you agree?
> >Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?
>
> I'm pretty sure VW will be required to put some kind of "code" in
> their "fixed" system's computer. If you don't get it fixed they will
> know at the inspection station that it's not fixed and will fail you.

I have owned three VWs before, back in the 1960s and 1970s. First one was a 1961 VW van, second one was a 1963 beetle/car, and the third one was a 1970 VW van. Air cooled engines, not enough power to get out of their own way, practicaly no heat at all in the winter time. The clutch cables break, the valves needed adjustment every three thousand miles. I have lonnnnng since sworn off of VWs, and all German vehicles forever!

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
> 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
> ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.
>
> REFERENCES:
> http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
> http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
> http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
> etc.
>
> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?
>

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation.
If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow.
I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:37:44 -0500, Mayayana >
wrote:

> | > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
> emissions?
> |
>

> There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
> to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
> If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
> of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
> global warming". But VW customers are almost a
> cult following, and mostly liberal.

The Justice Department reached an agreement
with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
people died.
I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
are running the Justice Department.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 22 Sep 2015 10:07:28 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Mayayana > wrote:
>> I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
>>figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
>>discrepancy between testing and on-road
>>results. But they've been haggling with VW
>>all this time and somehow never thought to look
>>at the software. Is the software accessible to
>>EPA? Do they have developers who could
>>understand it?
>
>No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not
>only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
>the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.
>
>> How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
>>How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
>>important issue. They only found out because they
>>threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
>>VW execs admitted what they were doing.
>>(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
>>more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
>>don't have to.)
>
>Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and
>I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of
>interesting games would be found.
>
>> ... Then of course there's the question that begs
>>to be asked: How could all of those executives,
>>in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
>>environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
>>a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?
>
>THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that
>needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next
>annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.
>
>> There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
>>to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
>>If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
>>of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
>>global warming". But VW customers are almost a
>>cult following, and mostly liberal.
>
>Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code
>needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the
>government inspectors.



I don't see the logic of this. The purpose of the code is to produce
a specific level of emissions. As the EPA found, and I doubt it was
hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during
dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code
and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling
emissions? You can't, you can only tell if it "works" by measuring
what comes out the tailpipe. Sure, a good code reader, if they had the
time to look thru god knows how many lines of code, *might* spot a
weird program execution loop but that it highly doubtful and certainly
not a sure thing. And even if they did, it would not prove that the
emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put
some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.