Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

>> Sigh. It's just sad.
>
> if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue

I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!

The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.

Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads,
someone would step in and stop that (we hope).

Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have,
never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot
pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.

They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired
deceleration value.

So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a
typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms
of performance.

Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't
get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.

All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests,
because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in
that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you
can't do.

For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing
two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this
conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are
pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.

Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is
what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bull**** and
fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad,
then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:52:27 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

> There are presumably 2nd order differences in pad performance,
> but we've no idea what they are. EE versus FF is not it seems
> the relevant criterion as long as the car can apply enough force
> to lock wheels with the pads.
> Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have
> no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't.

I agree with you that the primary role of friction material is their
friction, but as the AMECA engineer told me, the way they outgas alone can
have an effect that is huge, as you are also noting.

It would be nice to figure out what these second-order effects are, such as
outgassing as mentioned by the AMECA engineer, as the police cruiser test
already eliminated any second-order effects from a difference in vehicles
since they tested the different pads on the exact same vehicle.

So we can tentatively state that you are 100% correct that second-order
effects (outgassing) apparently are as big as first-order effects
(friction).

The AMECA engineer said that all materials heat up differently, which, he
said, also effects the performance of the pads.

So I think we have two potentially high second-order effects which are
(shockingly) almost as important as the first-order effect of friction
coefficient:
1) outgassing (outgasing sp?)
2) heating
3) ?

What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects
could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:45 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:52:27 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
>
>> There are presumably 2nd order differences in pad performance,
>> but we've no idea what they are. EE versus FF is not it seems
>> the relevant criterion as long as the car can apply enough force
>> to lock wheels with the pads.
>> Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have
>> no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't.
>
>I agree with you that the primary role of friction material is their
>friction, but as the AMECA engineer told me, the way they outgas alone can
>have an effect that is huge, as you are also noting.
>
>It would be nice to figure out what these second-order effects are, such as
>outgassing as mentioned by the AMECA engineer, as the police cruiser test
>already eliminated any second-order effects from a difference in vehicles
>since they tested the different pads on the exact same vehicle.
>
>So we can tentatively state that you are 100% correct that second-order
>effects (outgassing) apparently are as big as first-order effects
>(friction).
>
>The AMECA engineer said that all materials heat up differently, which, he
>said, also effects the performance of the pads.
>
>So I think we have two potentially high second-order effects which are
>(shockingly) almost as important as the first-order effect of friction
>coefficient:
>1) outgassing (outgasing sp?)
>2) heating
>3) ?
>
>What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects
>could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?



Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
effect of reduced pad contact

May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason
Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early
no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - -
)

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry
>> about is "performance"
>> That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake
>> feel, pad life, and rotor life.
>
>Yes. But.
>There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even
>less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online.
>
>Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bull**** (refer back to
>Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads,
>all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling
>them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't
>semimetallic.
>
>The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that
>if it contains asbestos.
>
>Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far.
>
>> The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and
>> the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE .
>> (Both are essentially an F -)
>
>Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping
>beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B
>when they are in the consumer's hands.


OK - we've gotten off the subject of brake SHOES - wherer there is a
lot less difference in materials and construction - but with PADS
there are several things you can consider that are NOT "marketing
bull****"

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

For rear brake SHOES a good organic material is usually your best bet
- they do not do a lot of the stopping, so generally outlast front
pads by a LARGE margine and unless towing, heavy loads, or extreme
duty they seldom get hot enough to fade much (compared to front brakes
- where droms significantly outperform discs in initial stopping
power, but quickly loose efficiency due to heat.

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

>
>But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling
>himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete
>bull**** (and always was for a huge number of reasons).
>
>Everything is bull****.
>That's what's so sad.

Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is)

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

That's why their prices are generally so good (if, unlike here in
Canada, the shipping costs don't totally wipe out the savings in so
many cases)

Taking into account the exchange rate and shipping, I can GENERALLY
buy , say, Wagner, from Napa or Parts Source for VERY close to the
same price as I can buy from Rock.
>
>The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its
>friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that
>company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.
>
>That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing
>bull****.
>

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.
>> AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the
>> manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they
>> will be close.
>
>Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt!
>
>1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge
>Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming
>your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same
>suspension setup, etc.)
>
>2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM
>Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the
>**** "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bull****ter who is telling you
>that.
>

Fiorget your paranoia about "marketting bull****" It is BULL****.
Don't get your technical information from know-nothing boy-racers
blogging on the internet, or reviews opn Amazon,or advertizing in
enthusiast magazines. Get your info from "trade magazines" and major
suppliers to the automotive TRADE.

Buy STEAK, not Sizzle. Forget your boutique brand crap. If your
favourite brands were as good as you seem to think they are, they
would have displaced TRW, WAGNER, Akebono, and the other major OEM
SUPPLIERS as the major aftermarket suppliers.

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

For good reason. They have the engineering, and they have the
"critical mass" to be able to produce quality at a reasonable price.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

Concentrate on becoming the BEST ELECTRICAL ENGINEER you can be and
let the automotive engineers do their job., Along with the materials
engineers, physicists, chemists, and wizards their potions and
perscriptions are working pretty good.

When you start to build specialized race vehicles or highly modified
special purpose vehicles, you go to the engineers with a blank
checquebook and have them come up with the specialized solution you
require - or you go to an "application engineer" and have him pick the
best off-the-shelf solution for your application - at a significantly
lower price point and a much better chance of initial success.
>So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.
>
>But what the **** does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the
>second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.

OEM means BASICALLY THE SAME DESIGN as OEM - so the second and third
order effects are taken intoaccount the same asthe OEM. This can NOT
be done by a "boutique" marketing company that buys their product out
of the discard bucket of some chinese sweatshop, or off the back
loading dock.

ONE of your "favorite brands" - pehaps MetalMaster -whichever one is
charging the highest price, most likely paid some shop in China to
produce their product afterr having paid some qualified enginners to
come up with the specs and formulation - then the unscrupulous
"*******s" in China unloaded a few containerloads out the back door to
some chinese marketing company who sold them to the other 2
manufacturers. - and quite possibly cheapened the product - possibly
even to the initial purchacer - by substituting inferior raw
materials, or cuttin corners on production - to sell it at a better
price to the other companies - without ever changing the stamp on the
material.

I've had dealings with the scoundrels, where my company paid for the
design and tooling for a product, only to have it on the cover of
"asian sources Computer" magazine for half what we were paying for it
before we even got our first containerload.

You deal with Chinese Industry at your peril. If you have FULL CONTROL
you MAY come out unscathed (Full control is a mirage)

Your 3 products MAY be the same. They MAY all be legitimate. They MAY
actually meet the specs stamped on them - but certainly do NOT bet
your life on it.

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.
>
>Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient?
>(Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more,
>right?)
>
>Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long?

OEM Quality means it meets the specifications of the OEM product - in
all the major areas including stopping power/performance, feel, and
life.
>Is as dustless?
>Makes as much noise?
>Has the same pedal force per deceleration value?
>Outgasses the same?
>Fades the same?
>
>Who the **** knows the answer to that question?

Certainly you don't, and never will if you don't listen and get
treetment for your paranoia.
>
>The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality
>is bull**** unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he
>doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him
>to say that.

Get back on your medications - and if you have never been medicated,
see a professional for dianosis and a perscription as soon as possible
>
>> I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with
>> different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on
>> one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has
>> problems.
>
>Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my
>jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect.

I have the advantage of being a legitimate tradesman with links to
the automotive oem replacement and afterrmarket locally, and am known
(and respected) by many of them even though I have been actively out
of the trade for over 2 decades - they don't "bull****" me. If they
try, they find out pretty quickly that it doesn't work.

They can usuallyspot a "poser" pretty quickly.
>
>So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you
>do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference
>is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant
>information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced
>with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.

I can tell you your $20 pads are NOT ceramic - almost 100% guaranteed
- and I can tell you the $157 pads arer NOT simple organics - almost
100% guarantee. I can also tell you if you are buying "boutique"
brands you are likely overpaying for whatever it is you are buying.

If I have them in my hand I can give you a pretty good guess as to
how they will stand up, and what affect they will have on your rotors.

You do not have this knowlege, and are very unlikely to ever gain
that knowlege because it comes with experience, along with training
and research in a field in which you have not got the training, and
your level of paranoia precludes you EVER absorbing the knowlege
offered to you.
>
>So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access.
You have access to trade supplies like NAPA. Sadly they will sell to
anyone who darkens their door.
>
>> Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management
>> magazine - which had articles about different products - written by
>> mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the
>> Stinkers.
>
>Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll
>land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more
>than they trust measurements.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Not only that, a pingpong ball and a baloon will also fall at
different speeds. - and if the balloon is full of hot air or helium it
won't fall at all.

You simplify things way too much on one hand, and complicate them way
to much onthe other.

I'd hate to have you design an electrical control system for me if
your grasp of electrical engineering is as poor as your grasp of
physice and aerodynamics - - -


"There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand
binary logic and those who don't"
>
>That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports.
>
>People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if
>they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always
>written to placate their own preconceived notions.

If you spend megabucks on something, and stake your reputation on
being right, then of course everthing you buy MUST work.

I had a brother inlaw who died of cancer because he KNEW the product
he had been selling and using cured cancer - so there was NO WAY his
cancer had come back If he admitted he had cancer again, he had lied
to everyone he peddled the stuff to and his life had been a lie - so
he didn't have cancer - untill it killed him.
>
>The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't
>know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review
>and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get
>advertisement money either.

Like the double blind study done by Nokian with the automotive press
on their Hakkapelitta snow tires.
Nobody knew which cars had what tires on them during the tests - but
the experienced drivers could tell.
>
>And that's almost zero reviews.
>All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bull****, IMHO.
>
>I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag
>like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of
>a brake comparison that is meaningful.
>
>For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is
>better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's
>comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.

Well, I KNOW that some coopers are better than some Duinlops - and
also that some dunlops are better than some Coopers, and a few years
back just about ANYTHING was better than a Hankook. I also know that
Hankook builds and sells some pretty decent tires today. (and like
most manufacturers - some total CRAP.

I also know that many "northamerican brand" tires are now made in
China or Korea, or Thailand or VietNam.
>
>Same here.
>Just having one test is useless.
>The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us.
>
>And they just don't.
>
>> Look for a certified label
>
>As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip
>code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.

BUll****. Read the article I posted for you. It is an international
certification program - independent of the manufacturer
>
>The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in
>the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by
>looking at the pad.
>
>Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only
>conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're
>different) has to be based on bull****.
>
>That's just sad.

What is REALLY sad is you are so mired in Bovine Excement and
paranoia that you can't see the forest for the trees.
>
>> New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum
>> stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal
>> effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will
>> perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not
>> necessarily the case.

If you buy QUALITY replacement parts, they will meet or excede those
specs. If you buy boutique crap online you have no assurances at all.
>
>I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I
>don't doubt you as you've been right all along.
>
>However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems
>that any pad works, based on those standards.

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.
>
>I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're
>not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they
>are not alike, is based on bull**** that isn't backed up by any science
>that is available to us.

Your paranoia and ignorance is showing - BIG TIME.

If I put Wagner Thermoquiet ceramic pads on the front of my vehicle,
and wagner or monroe premium shoes on the rear, with good rotors and
pads (no grooves or glazing) and I properly break them in, I KNOW I
will be stopping well for the next couple of years or 10-20000km with
no issues IF I service the front calipers regularly to be sure the
sliders don't stick - and that's here in the "rust belt" of Central
Ontario.

I also know, from experience, that if I pay 3 times as much for EBC
greenstuff pads from some performace shop for my "Mondeo" as what I
pay for OEM wagners, they don't last any longer or stop any better
than if I put on Wagner Semi Metallics. Been there - done that -
threw away the awful "t" shirt ---
>
>As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only
>guy who knows anything about them.
>
>Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me,
>doesn't know anything about any other material.

ANd the guy who submits it may not know squat about it either other
than where he had it made and by who.
>
>> In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid
>> future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify
>> their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are
>> designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as
>> original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being
>> installed on their vehicle are certified.
>
>Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't
>really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go
>to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they
>expect to get brake pads and shoes.

Perhaps three of the WORST places to go - and your " I have never
been to a mechanic in my entire life," speeks volumes - if nothing
else - about your combination of paranoia and ignorance.
>
>I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to
>a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen
>different brands on the vehicle.

ANd if you took them to those brake shops, you will have paid more
than necessary and gotten less than you paiud for unless you knewa lot
more than you do.
>
>Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand.
>
>Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.)
>
Totally wrong. Go to a Napa Autopro garage and you will get product
sold by NAPA - either their own brand or a national brand - either
economy or premium - depending on what you are willing to pay.

The fact you have "no experience with mechanics" and yet you are so
paranoid speeks volumes. A young graduate engineer with no experience
and an inflated opinion of himself and his knowlege in a field for
which he has NO TRAINING. Don't know about where you are, but I had5
years of training before I could call myself a mechanic.
As a teacher of automechanics I had to make sure my students had a
good grasp of elementary physics (levers, ratios,mechanical
advantage,friction and lubrication) and the related maths, as well as
electricity and electronics, plumbing, machining,some thermodynamics,
as well as hoiw to properly select and use the proper tools for a job
and to work safely. And on top of that, I had to teach them about
"auto mechanics".

After becoming a registered. "licenced" mechanic I took courses put on
by the trade suppliers and the oil companies (when I worked at service
stations) and the manufacturers (when I worked for a dealership) to
keep up to the "state of the art" in products, tools, and diagnosis
methods, (troubleshooting) among other things.

>I'll cover the rest separately.
>I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along.
>You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me.


You have all the "resources" available to you that I have, except for
experience and intuation (born from that experience, as well as
specialized training). Nothing I have quoted or provided for you came
from anywhere that is not readilly available to you - at your keyboard
- if you have half a clue where to look and how to find it.


Along with close to 3 decades of working in the automotive trade I
have close to another 3 decades working in information technology
The secret is knowing fly**** from pepper.

Some of that comes from experience. Some of it comes from "inate
intelligence" and "aptitude" which some are born with, and some are
totally devoid of - no matter HOW much education they get.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:44 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
>
>>> Sigh. It's just sad.
>>
>> if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue
>
>I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!
>
>The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.
>
>Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads,
>someone would step in and stop that (we hope).
>
>Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have,
>never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot
>pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.
>
>They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired
>deceleration value.

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
(and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -
>
>So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a
>typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms
>of performance.

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
down. Every time.
A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
better on a cold stop than a ceramic.
>
>Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't
>get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.

No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
$20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
good indicator.

Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
material into the finish of the rotor.. The stopping power of the
brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.
How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. If you stop hard
and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
"scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Inferior brake friction material performs more poorly in these ways
than premium materials.

A worn, glazed, or grooved rotor will not "bed in" reliably because
the surface will heat and cool unevenly - with uneven pressure across
the brake surface -

So brake friction material quality AND the installation affect brake
performance.

Also, the brake mounting hardware - the shims and springs either
provided with the new pads, purchased separately, or salvaged from the
prior installation (whether OEM or aftermarket or totally missing)
alsohave effects on the performance (and life) of the brakes. Heat
transfer, Vibration, and freedon to move in the caliper, are all
effected by the quality and presence of the proper mounting hardware -
which is designed/modified by the pad manufacturer to matvch the
characteristics and requirements of their particular pad and friction
material - which is why "premium"brake kits are supplied with the
proper hardware to install the brakes for their best performance.
>
>All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests,
>because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in
>that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you
>can't do.
>

More paranoid bull****.


>For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing
>two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this
>conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are
>pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.
>

Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
best and worst in the test is VERY significant.
What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

>Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is
>what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bull**** and
>fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad,
>then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.


WRONG.
And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
>
>> That's retail.
>
>That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided
>because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can
>prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since
>I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.

You still have not learned ANYTHING?????

The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever
written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment.
>
>Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50
>speaker, and the price is exactly the same.
>
>So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same
>rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but
>the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.
>

You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky
and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for

You can take THAT to the bank.

>That's retail for you!
>
>> And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake
>> shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?

Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price
to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe
enough to require anything better.

I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by
being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one
wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in
1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum
coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I
sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for
something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required
a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .

I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".

The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because
nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with
over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years -
I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all
indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than
my money's worth.

In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying
better than both the seller and other potential buyers.

You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly
when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY
less likely to get more than you pay for.

Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other
often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator.
>
>I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
>marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or
guarantee of quality.
>
>> No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though
>> they're the same parts you get in the shops.

No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake
parts and used exhaust/emission parts.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
>which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
>billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.

Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts
on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes,
suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or
transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend
all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's
wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the
scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.

That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate
source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first.
Have I used "used" brake parts in the past??
Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53
Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and
OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less
than optimal.
ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I
going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between
Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind
this was 44 years ago - - - - .
>
>What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains
>entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?
>
>Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?
>
>> if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.

Not necessarilly.
>
>There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we
>have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.

Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one
>
>The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold
>true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything
>about.

again, bushels of bovine excrement.
>
>I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by
>having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.

And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption
here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything
on-line????
>
>> Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating
>> of oak is?

Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and
definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at
low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!
>
>Or rubber in bicycle brakes.

There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of
"rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and
their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and
others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others
for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder >
wrote:

>see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...87814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:34:19 AM UTC-10, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> > wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
> > wrote:
> >
> >> That's retail.
> >
> >That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided
> >because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can
> >prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since
> >I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.
>
> You still have not learned ANYTHING?????
>
> The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever
> written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment.
> >
> >Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50
> >speaker, and the price is exactly the same.
> >
> >So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same
> >rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but
> >the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.
> >
>
> You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky
> and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for
>
> You can take THAT to the bank.
>
> >That's retail for you!
> >
> >> And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake
> >> shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?
>
> Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price
> to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe
> enough to require anything better.
>
> I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by
> being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one
> wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in
> 1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum
> coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I
> sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for
> something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required
> a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .
>
> I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".
>
> The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because
> nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with
> over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years -
> I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all
> indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than
> my money's worth.
>
> In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying
> better than both the seller and other potential buyers.
>
> You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly
> when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY
> less likely to get more than you pay for.
>
> Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other
> often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator.
> >
> >I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
> >marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.
>
> It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or
> guarantee of quality.
> >
> >> No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though
> >> they're the same parts you get in the shops.
>
> No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake
> parts and used exhaust/emission parts.
> >
> >I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
> >which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
> >billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.
>
> Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts
> on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes,
> suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or
> transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend
> all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's
> wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the
> scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.
>
> That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate
> source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first.
> Have I used "used" brake parts in the past??
> Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53
> Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and
> OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less
> than optimal.
> ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I
> going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between
> Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind
> this was 44 years ago - - - - .
> >
> >What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains
> >entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?
> >
> >Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?
> >
> >> if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.
>
> Not necessarilly.
> >
> >There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we
> >have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.
>
> Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one
> >
> >The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold
> >true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything
> >about.
>
> again, bushels of bovine excrement.
> >
> >I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by
> >having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.
>
> And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption
> here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything
> on-line????
> >
> >> Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating
> >> of oak is?
>
> Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and
> definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at
> low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!
> >
> >Or rubber in bicycle brakes.
>
> There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of
> "rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and
> their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and
> others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others
> for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)

I just picked up a VW door latch assembly on eBay. It's a large electromechanical component that fails frequently. The new part was probably made in China but I suppose it could be made in some European ******** country. It looks solid enough and I can't imagine that it could possibly be more unreliable than a genuine VW part - whatever the heck that means. It cost me $23, including shipping. I just saved $130.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder >
wrote:

More of "all you ever wanted to know about friction materials" but
were afraid to ask - - -

http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial-bahadur.pdf

and

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/u...-formulations/

and

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/4/1/5/htm

and

http://www.marathonbrake.com/product...pplication/ub/

and

https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publicat...s/Pub57043.pdf

and

a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!!

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:09:47 -0500, Clare Snyder >
wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder >
>wrote:
>
>>see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...87814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information


And here is some more real good information on brake pad materials -
on a lower level - for the non-engineers out there.