Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 03:25:48 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

> But even better than saving money, is all the knowledge gleefully gained,
> where we can purchase, ship, dismount, mount, and balance our tires such
> that we have no discernible vibration at speed, and, even more importantly,
> we get to enjoy working on our cars at our own pace & convenience, knowing
> that the job is done well (don't even get me started on how tire shops skip
> critical steps because all they care about is how much time it takes).

I should be careful not to malign all tire shops, where, it's only "some"
that cheat the customers.

For example, I've personally witnessed tire shops giving bad advice to
customers (e.g., one told a customer in front of me who had brakes done
that they "needed" new tires because the wear bars were within 2/32" of the
legal limit - which means they lied to that customer - whom I pulled aside
and advised that it's a lie that they told her).

In another case, I watched the tire shop inflate ALL tires on ALL vehicles
to the same PSI (they didn't even KNOW what it was when I asked).

And I've seen them pry off my BBS hubcaps they don't bother using the $5
tool. <https://i.postimg.cc/sfqPNcVc/mount13.jpg>

I've seen them torque all lug nuts (mine are bolts) to the same torque,
which, again, they didn't even KNOW what it was - they just torque ALL
wheels to the same spec.

They didn't know the bimmer I had brought in has a specification that is
different for the fronts versus the rears on tire pressure (they just
pressurize all passenger car tires to the same psi).

They didn't even know how to match mount the tires by the dots, since they
simply use the Hunter wheel balancing machine - which - one could argue -
is OK given that it will take into account mismatches - but - where - at
least theoretically - they would use the least amount of weight if they
simply bothered to match mount.

I've seen them NOT remove the old wheel weights (particularly, again, on my
BBS wheels since they're stick-on weights attached to the inside), and
certainly they don't spend the time to clean up the rim as well as you
might, at home.

The fact is that people who don't know how to mount and balance tires don't
even NOTICE how many things tire shops do wrong, but I'm not going to say
ALL tire shops skip all these steps ... but certainly I've seen many that
do.

My photos were, I'm told, instrumental in getting Midas kicked out of the
Tire Rack list of recommended retailers, for example, when I documented
them breaking just about every rule there is for mounting tires
professionally.

Having said that, the main reason you mount and balance tires at home is
because you like home maintenance and repair, where it just FEELS GOOD to
have the power to mount and balance your own tires anytime you want to in
the convenience of your own garage, where, in the end, you KNOW the job is
done right every step of the way - and if FEELS GOOD to have done it
yourself.

What feels good is
o Knowing HOW to purchase great tires on the net
o At great prices, shipped to your home
o Then being able to dismount the old tires whenever you want to
o And being able to mount & balance the new tires at your convenience
o And, being able to properly patchplug a repair whenever you need to

While for some people (like trader_4, this is too much thinking), for me,
all this convenience, learning, and utility ... is just plain fun.

Hence, I thank you for helping me learn how to do the job even better!

On 5 Sep 2019 19:07:00 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

> Technic 20 Litre Tyre Inflator 20L / 5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster
> Booster Tool Tyre
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07H36ZH..._9WvCDbM7SFSA6

Hi Tim+,

Thanks for the purposefully helpful advice, which mirror what Clare
suggested, and he's never been wrong (just look at the great stuff he found
out for how to properly choose brake pads by the numbers, for example).

Your advice (and that of Clare, Xeno, and others who have changed tires) is
what makes this newsgroup so rewarding for all concerned.

Searching for American sources, that bead blaster seems pretty common
<https://www.amazon.com/tire-air-blaster/s?k=tire+air+blaster>
With prices being roughly around $70 to about $115 US dollars, which is
fine for this type of tool, given each tire mounting and balancing sequence
(for five tires) costs about $100 which is done around once a year. pm
average. assuming you have a few vehicles in your household like most
Americans do.

Doing the obligatory 50-year math...
o Over 50 years, that's about $5,000 spent on tire mounting & balancing
o With a cost of, oh, say $300 for tools, that cost drops to $4,700

However, the main reason for doing ANY automotive maintenance & repair job
at home isn't so much that you always save lots of money - but that you
LEARN a lot (e.g., you learn how to purchase tires by the numbers) - and
you ENJOY a lot (it's just sheer joy to have the power to fix stuff at
home), and you do it RIGHT (since time isn't your concern while at a shop,
time is a critical concern of theirs) - and most importantly - you do it
when you feel like doing it at your CONVENIENCE (which is a lot of fun).

One more thing that you GAIN by DIY maintenance & repair is that you can do
MORE of it ...

For example, on our mountain, we all burn though front tires on their
outside edges
<https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg>
due to what Xeno & Clare have explained is likely camber scrub:
<https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg>
where the effect is noticeable on front tires in a few thousand miles
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zVxVHVx/mount40.jpg>
and, where close observation shows the effect in only hundreds of miles
<https://i.postimg.cc/pT71cQZG/mount41.jpg>
such that one side of the tire is worn while the other half is fine
<https://i.postimg.cc/G2rYpQnp/mount23.jpg>
and where frequent tire rotation only resolves half the problem
<https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg>
Since the tire is still rotating in the same direction on the wheel.

While there are amelioration techniques that Xeno & Clare have outlined
such as lessening positive front caster, the wear is due to the un-natural
positive camber that the inside wheel takes on sharp turns:
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqHVb5gY/mount33.jpg>
such that the inside front wheel outside corner takes the brunt of it
<https://i.postimg.cc/hGvsXBjK/mount34.jpg>
meaning there's only so much you can play with in terms of home alignment
<https://i.postimg.cc/vZs6Vm3B/mount35.jpg>
given it's always going to wear the outside edge of the front tires
<https://i.postimg.cc/wTf1xnzJ/mount36.jpg>

The simplest solution, which most people never do, would be to FLIP the
wheels on the rim at the normal 5,000 mile rotation point.
<https://i.postimg.cc/26DfF8vq/mount02.jpg>

If you don't know how to flip a tire on the rim in a few minutes, you
likely won't do it, since it would cost $20 per rotation which is $100 just
to flip the tires (even Costco charges for flipping tires on the rim, even
if you bought the tires from them and had them initially mount them).

Since it would cost more than the tires to flip them every 5000 miles on
the rim, doing the work at home is not only fun and convenient, but, doing
the work at home means you will be saving tires from the landfill which is
the environmental friendly thing to do.

In summary, not only is it fun and convenient to DIY at home, but it
enables you to minimize the impact on the environment because you can do
things that few people would do if they couldn't do them easily at home.

On 6/9/19 12:57 am, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:36:27 +1000, Xeno wrote:
>
>> Yes to the first.
>> Tyre strap for the second.
>> One strap only around the middle of the tyre.
>
> Hi Xeno,
>
> Thanks for the vote on the tire straps, where you were instrumental in
> helping me hone WHY almost all the tires on this mountain wear out on the
> outside edge of the front tires before anything else!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2Fw0dK/mount03.jpg>
>
> On the topic of tire straps, my OP shows that I did try a 'rope' but it
> broke after about only a dozen or so turns, where it wasn't doing anything
> effective anyway.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/J4d9vdm0/mount55.jpg
>
>> In another post, ratchet straps are mentioned. They might work. I've
>> always used the proper tyre strap so never tried alternatives but
>> whatever works.
>
> Also on the topic of ratchet straps, Clare posted a few videos of American
> ingenuity at work with homemade bazooka air blasters, where both of those
> videos used a strap but to no avail.

Yes, Clare's point is well made re straps and belted/steel belted
radials. The belt reduces the tread flexibility somewhat making the task
more difficult. That said, I have always managed to get tyres inflated
using the proper designed for purpose tyre strap.
>
> This first video seems to use two ratchet straps:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB95Eym98vs>
> And he used a block of wood UNDER the tire to hold the bottom bead.
>
> While this video uses a steel strap which might be a tire strap?
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcqKc1h7FFc>
>
> Is _that_ steel strap a "tire strap"?
>
Steel straps might be dangerous in case of breakage.
>
>> Had a friend recently have the issue. The first mistake he made was
>> retaining the valve core - bad move since you need a decent blast of
>> air.
>
> Understood. About 40 tires ago (about a half dozen years ago or so), when I
> first started mounting and balancing tires at home, I left the Shrader
> valve in place - but now I habitually unscrew it before filling with a
> simple custom air gun that I made by replacing the tip with the proper
> fitting:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/WzZW9MvT/mount07.jpg>
>
>> Second was he was using one of those cheap tyre inflaters on his
>> compressor that limits flow drastically.
>
> Hmm.... I don't know what that is, but my compressor is a 220VAC 20-gallon
> wheeled compressor with enough air to fill the tire if only I could seal it
> without needing a helper (or two in this case, which was the first time in
> two score tires that I needed a SECOND helper).

Standard tyre gauge/inflator of the type you get with cheapo compressors
and at cheapo automotive stores. Always too restrictive on air flow.
>
>> I told him to take it off and
>> blast it with the air hose plugged directly onto the valve.
>
> Yup. That's EXACTLY what I do with this simple fitting.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4yxSFpSp/mount57.jpg>
>
> Sometimes I rubber band the trigger so the air is always flowing.

In the case of my friend, I told him to use the air control valve on the
compressor in order to get a sufficiently large and *sudden* blast of air.
>
>> He was also
>> using 2 (two) tyre straps, each being over a bead. Bad move as that
>> forces the sidewalls inwards *away* from the beads. Just one around the
>> centre of the tread works perfectly and puts an outward pressure on the
>> bead helping to minimise air loss there.
>
> I need to buy these tire straps... or make the bazooka Clare mentioned, but
> while I have the same welding equipment everyone has, I really don't have
> the skills necessary to fabricate the bazooka from scratch.
>
>> Bottom line; maximise air flow, minimise air loss.
>
> Up until now, the one helper sufficed to push in the bead with me as I
> filled the tire with air - but this set took two helpers.

I always inflate with the tyre flat on the ground. The rim should be in
roughly in the central position between tyre beads. Might need to
position the rim on a couple of pieces of wood to achieve this on some
tyres. I have sometimes found it prudent to start the bead on one side
onto the rim, usually the rear, then flip the tyre/rim over and the
downward force on the rim brings the upper bead close to, if not
touching, the upper rim. It can be a frustrating exercise sometimes but
I have never been forced to resort to extreme measures like explosive
gases.
>
> I just remembered in the last set, it was a bit difficult too, but I had
> attributed it to the fact I left the tape closing the bead on during
> storage for a few months.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/DwnjgJY3/mount08.jpg>
>
> It might simply be this set of tires is a bit "loose" which made sealing
> the bead just hard enough to require a second helper.

In days of yore, I used to stretch the beads apart with a tyre spreader;

http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l300...53731918_1.jpg

Not the same as the type I used but should be Ok. Just work around the
tyre spreading it apart and hope it retains some spread when released.
That used to work in the days of stiff tyre sidewalls but may be a tad
iffish in this era of limp radial sidewalls. If nothing else, it's a
handy tool for spreading tyres in order to check for damage to the inner
carcase.
>
> Without either a tire strap or a helper, I don't think seating these
> P227/75R15 light truck (SUV) tires can be easily done with just me and the
> air compressor so I am going to NEED a tire strap (or that bazooka!).
>


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 6/9/19 5:07 am, Tim+ wrote:
> Arlen G. Holder > wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:41:06 +0100, Andrew wrote:
>>
>>> Do it the Icelandic way. Spray some lighter fuel inside the tyre
>>> and apply a flame.
>>
>> I've done that redneck trick and it certainly does work.
>
> If you don’t like the idea of using flammable gas would one of these be the
> answer?
>
> Technic 20 Litre Tyre Inflator 20L / 5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster
> Booster Tool Tyre
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07H36ZH..._9WvCDbM7SFSA6
>
>
> Tim
>
That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too. Win win.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 6/9/19 2:15 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2019 19:07:00 GMT, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Technic 20 Litre Tyre Inflator 20L / 5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster
>> Booster Tool Tyre
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07H36ZH..._9WvCDbM7SFSA6
>
> Hi Tim+,
>
> Thanks for the purposefully helpful advice, which mirror what Clare
> suggested, and he's never been wrong (just look at the great stuff he found
> out for how to properly choose brake pads by the numbers, for example).
>
> Your advice (and that of Clare, Xeno, and others who have changed tires) is
> what makes this newsgroup so rewarding for all concerned.
>
> Searching for American sources, that bead blaster seems pretty common
> <https://www.amazon.com/tire-air-blaster/s?k=tire+air+blaster>
> With prices being roughly around $70 to about $115 US dollars, which is
> fine for this type of tool, given each tire mounting and balancing sequence
> (for five tires) costs about $100 which is done around once a year. pm
> average. assuming you have a few vehicles in your household like most
> Americans do.
>
> Doing the obligatory 50-year math...
> o Over 50 years, that's about $5,000 spent on tire mounting & balancing
> o With a cost of, oh, say $300 for tools, that cost drops to $4,700
>
> However, the main reason for doing ANY automotive maintenance & repair job
> at home isn't so much that you always save lots of money - but that you
> LEARN a lot (e.g., you learn how to purchase tires by the numbers) - and
> you ENJOY a lot (it's just sheer joy to have the power to fix stuff at
> home), and you do it RIGHT (since time isn't your concern while at a shop,
> time is a critical concern of theirs) - and most importantly - you do it
> when you feel like doing it at your CONVENIENCE (which is a lot of fun).
>
> One more thing that you GAIN by DIY maintenance & repair is that you can do
> MORE of it ...
>
> For example, on our mountain, we all burn though front tires on their
> outside edges
> <https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg>
> due to what Xeno & Clare have explained is likely camber scrub:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg>
> where the effect is noticeable on front tires in a few thousand miles
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8zVxVHVx/mount40.jpg>
> and, where close observation shows the effect in only hundreds of miles
> <https://i.postimg.cc/pT71cQZG/mount41.jpg>
> such that one side of the tire is worn while the other half is fine
> <https://i.postimg.cc/G2rYpQnp/mount23.jpg>
> and where frequent tire rotation only resolves half the problem
> <https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg>
> Since the tire is still rotating in the same direction on the wheel.
>
> While there are amelioration techniques that Xeno & Clare have outlined
> such as lessening positive front caster, the wear is due to the un-natural
> positive camber that the inside wheel takes on sharp turns:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/YqHVb5gY/mount33.jpg>
> such that the inside front wheel outside corner takes the brunt of it
> <https://i.postimg.cc/hGvsXBjK/mount34.jpg>
> meaning there's only so much you can play with in terms of home alignment
> <https://i.postimg.cc/vZs6Vm3B/mount35.jpg>
> given it's always going to wear the outside edge of the front tires
> <https://i.postimg.cc/wTf1xnzJ/mount36.jpg>
>
> The simplest solution, which most people never do, would be to FLIP the
> wheels on the rim at the normal 5,000 mile rotation point.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/26DfF8vq/mount02.jpg>
>
> If you don't know how to flip a tire on the rim in a few minutes, you
> likely won't do it, since it would cost $20 per rotation which is $100 just
> to flip the tires (even Costco charges for flipping tires on the rim, even
> if you bought the tires from them and had them initially mount them).
>
> Since it would cost more than the tires to flip them every 5000 miles on
> the rim, doing the work at home is not only fun and convenient, but, doing

Given I spent years on the tools, I don't see flipping tyres on the rim
as either fun or convenient, especially since I'm on the wrong side of
65. I'm happy to just replace the tyres earlier than usual.

> the work at home means you will be saving tires from the landfill which is
> the environmental friendly thing to do.
>
> In summary, not only is it fun and convenient to DIY at home, but it
> enables you to minimize the impact on the environment because you can do
> things that few people would do if they couldn't do them easily at home.
>


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Arlen G. Holder wrote:

> I've seen them NOT remove the old wheel weights (particularly, again, on my
> BBS wheels since they're stick-on weights attached to the inside), and
> certainly they don't spend the time to clean up the rim as well as you
> might, at home.

Oh, pffffftt.
Removing old weights is highly overrated.
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tLKv...u-pZaTyE8RZlH9

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:22:16 +1000, Xeno wrote:

> Given I spent years on the tools, I don't see flipping tyres on the rim
> as either fun or convenient, especially since I'm on the wrong side of
> 65. I'm happy to just replace the tyres earlier than usual.

Hi Xeno,

You were instrumental in explaining the "camber scrub" issue, which your
experience enabled you to recognize, even as there is almost noting on the
web that is specific to the type of wear that a mountain road causes.

You were able to do that because of the KNOWLEDGE you learned over those
years, where, for me, simply learning stuff is fun.

Also, for me, the feeling of sheer POWER is exhilarating, that I can do
some of the jobs at home that almost nobody does at home, usually because
they're afraid (e.g., winding garage door springs or installing coiled
struts) or because they're simply unable to learn details (as in the case
of trader_4), or because they don't want to get their hands dirty, etc.

What I LOVE about automotive repair is a whole bunch of things, all of
which take effort to accomplish, but once accomplished, you always have,
such as the KNOWLEDGE of how to do the job right, and the SATISFACTION of
doing it right, and the CONVENIENCE of doing it when you feel like it, and
the SAFETY of knowing it's done right and the EFFICIENCY of doing it at the
lowest possible cost (saving about $5,000 dollars in a 50-year worktime)
and, as I mentioned, also being good for the ENVIRONMENT (adding an extra
few thousand miles to tire wear should help the environment).

As for flipping tires on the rim, I would agree that most people don't NEED
to do it; but for our particular mountain road situation, you, of all
people, can at least comprehend the viability of being able to do so is a
nice thing to have under our belts, particularly if you're like me who
likes to get as many miles out of a set of rubber as is possible.
<https://i.postimg.cc/0NGXktgp/mount59.jpg>

Of all people on this ng, you and Clare are just about the main ones who
KNOW how this business works - even down to diagnosing the specific problem
we had with diagnosing the highly unusual wear patters we've been
experiencing, where this
<https://i.postimg.cc/zvvyL2tq/mount24.jpg
soon turns into this
<https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg>
And then, eventually, into this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2Fw0dK/mount03.jpg>

Where, you have to admit, flipping the tires on the rim is one of a few
amelioration techniques (along with lessening front positive caster).

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:

> That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too. Win win.

Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
these guys opted for the flames!
<https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214>

On 6/9/19 3:46 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:17:47 +1000, Xeno wrote:
>
>> That looks like a neat piece of kit! Simple and safe too. Win win.
>
> Even with the strap, and the bazooka in the background,
> these guys opted for the flames!
> <https://youtu.be/lsnf3Zj0Vb8?t=214>
>
With the flame you have little if any control.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:52:17 +1000, Xeno wrote:

> With the flame you have little if any control.

Hi Xeno,
I'm one of the few people on this ng who have DONE the flame method.
I agree it's so fast, there's no way you can control it.

I've done it - but I don't like it at all.

What I really like is THIS deluxe wheeled bazooka setup!
<https://youtu.be/TniM_CyJxiI?t=83>

I haven't seen anything nicer than that one!
OTC Tire Bead Seater - #5713

Although this uses a "tire ring" which is new to me:
<https://youtu.be/RduiwJk5z9Q?t=27>

This guy used a bicycle tube, which was explained earlier:
<https://youtu.be/0LqVs7jwVFI?t=51>
which is a 16 inch x 1.75 bicycle tube for a 16-inch car wheel.

Knowing how tightly a bead seats, I'm surprised the bicycle tube can be
pulled out so easily.