Correcting negative caster on 97 Accord

For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
my 97 Accord (200K miles)
After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
alignments, the problem still persisted.
I experience the following symptoms.
* little on-center feel
* suspension feels loose
* steering feels disconnected from the wheels
* handling is unstable at freeway speeds
* car wallows at freeway speeds
* steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
speeds
* car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
into grooves)
* crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
speeds.

I think I may have finally figured out the problem.
I brought the car to a local alignment shop, which told me that they
can only adjust toe.
Apparently camber and caster can not be adjusted (forget if this is a
limitation of the car
or only certain alignment shops)
The alignment machine they had it on showed a significant negative
caster which is known to cause these type of symptoms. I believe the
machine showed the factory specs are 2.8, with my car registering 1.08
In summary, I would like to know if indeed front caster is adjustable
on 94-97 Honda Accords.
If not, can I correct a negative caster by replacing bushings and other
worn suspension components?
This handling issue is driving me nuts and only seems to be getting
worse.
Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape
Thanks

wrote:
> For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
> my 97 Accord (200K miles)
> After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
> alignments, the problem still persisted.
> I experience the following symptoms.
> * little on-center feel
> * suspension feels loose
> * steering feels disconnected from the wheels
> * handling is unstable at freeway speeds
> * car wallows at freeway speeds
> * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
> speeds
> * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
> into grooves)
> * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
> speeds.
>
> I think I may have finally figured out the problem.
> I brought the car to a local alignment shop, which told me that they
> can only adjust toe.
> Apparently camber and caster can not be adjusted (forget if this is a
> limitation of the car
> or only certain alignment shops)
> The alignment machine they had it on showed a significant negative
> caster which is known to cause these type of symptoms. I believe the
> machine showed the factory specs are 2.8, with my car registering 1.08
> In summary, I would like to know if indeed front caster is adjustable
> on 94-97 Honda Accords.
> If not, can I correct a negative caster by replacing bushings and other
> worn suspension components?
> This handling issue is driving me nuts and only seems to be getting
> worse.
> Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape
> Thanks
>
first things first - you don't have negative caster, you have reduced
caster.

to answer your direct question, no, caster is not adjustable - you need
to have the frame straightened to fix it.

finally, the chances of this being the sole cause of your handling
problems are slim. by the symptoms you describe, you have wear in some
of your suspension componentry. front upper wishbone pivots are prime
candidates. they're seldom diagnosed properly because if the car is up
on the stand and the wheel off, the suspension is out of its normal
range of motion and the pivot is tight. on the road however, it's in
its normal position of maximum wear and that top joint is free to slop
about and causes all kinds of mischief. once all that stuff is sorted
out, you'll probably find the reduced caster to be be quite acceptable -
it only really affects the "return to center" action. regarding
wallowing, are your replacement shocks oem honda? if not, go back to
oem. if you can't afford those, go kyb. monroe and suchlike are to be
avoided.

On 1/6/07 2:50 AM, in article
,
" > wrote:

> For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
> my 97 Accord (200K miles)
> After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
> alignments, the problem still persisted.
> I experience the following symptoms.
> * little on-center feel
> * suspension feels loose
> * steering feels disconnected from the wheels
> * handling is unstable at freeway speeds
> * car wallows at freeway speeds
> * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
> speeds
> * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
> into grooves)
> * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
> speeds.
>
> I think I may have finally figured out the problem.
> I brought the car to a local alignment shop, which told me that they
> can only adjust toe.
> Apparently camber and caster can not be adjusted (forget if this is a
> limitation of the car
> or only certain alignment shops)
> The alignment machine they had it on showed a significant negative
> caster which is known to cause these type of symptoms. I believe the
> machine showed the factory specs are 2.8, with my car registering 1.08
> In summary, I would like to know if indeed front caster is adjustable
> on 94-97 Honda Accords.
> If not, can I correct a negative caster by replacing bushings and other
> worn suspension components?
> This handling issue is driving me nuts and only seems to be getting
> worse.
> Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape
> Thanks
>

The factory approved method is to replace parts until its in spec. In
practice, there might be a kit you can buy that will move things enough to
fix it. Failing that, take it to a frame/alignment shop (the people who
straighten car frames after accidents). They will have the equipment to
bend it back into spec.

I had an earlier Accord that had this same problem when I bought it.
Besides the handling issues, it ate tires at a rapid rate. None of the
chain tire and alignment shops could do anything with it (except take my
money).

I had previously discovered the frame shop on a referral from the Ford
dealer when I had a Ford Bronco with the twin I-beam front end that had to
be aligned by bending the i-beam. They found the right front wheel was
pushed back slightly, probably due to repeated parking incidents with curbs
or parking lot stoppers. This is apparently a common problem with these
cars as they age. They fixed it for under $100 and the car was fine from
then on. If you are near Dallas, I can recommend a place.

In article om>,
says...

> For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
> my 97 Accord (200K miles)
> After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
> alignments, the problem still persisted.
> I experience the following symptoms.
> * little on-center feel
> * suspension feels loose
> * steering feels disconnected from the wheels
> * handling is unstable at freeway speeds
> * car wallows at freeway speeds
> * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
> speeds
> * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
> into grooves)
> * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
> speeds.

I'd agree with jim beam's advice that this sounds like wear in one or
more suspension components more than a caster issue. I'd also have the
tie rods and sway bar bushings looked at. My 90 CRX was exhibiting many
of the same symptoms you describe, particularly the instability and
"wallowing" at higher speeds, and replacing the (very worn/cracked) tie
rods/front sway bar bushings improved matters considerably.

Dave

On 6 Jan 2007 00:50:25 -0800, wrote:

>For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
>my 97 Accord (200K miles)
>After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
>alignments, the problem still persisted.
>I experience the following symptoms.
> * little on-center feel
> * suspension feels loose
> * steering feels disconnected from the wheels
> * handling is unstable at freeway speeds
> * car wallows at freeway speeds
> * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
>speeds
> * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
>into grooves)
> * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
>speeds.
>

Everything you describe are classic symptoms of over-inflated front
tires. Aggravated if rear are under-inflated. Find the sticker in
the car and try the tires at Honda's recommended inflation. What's
printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire
--"consult placard in vehicle" -- may tell you.

Simle things first! If that doesn't help go on the search for loose
parts. 1 degree of caster is not going to make or break handling.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:33:23 -0600, Don
> wrote:

>On 6 Jan 2007 00:50:25 -0800, wrote:
>
>>For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
>>my 97 Accord (200K miles)
>>After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
>>alignments, the problem still persisted.
>>I experience the following symptoms.
>> * little on-center feel
>> * suspension feels loose
>> * steering feels disconnected from the wheels
>> * handling is unstable at freeway speeds
>> * car wallows at freeway speeds
>> * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
>>speeds
>> * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
>>into grooves)
>> * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
>>speeds.
>>
>
>Everything you describe are classic symptoms of over-inflated front
>tires. Aggravated if rear are under-inflated. Find the sticker in
>the car and try the tires at Honda's recommended inflation. What's
>printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
>what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire
>--"consult placard in vehicle" -- may tell you.
>
>Simle things first! If that doesn't help go on the search for loose
>parts. 1 degree of caster is not going to make or break handling.
>
>Don
>www.donsautomotive.com


I Second Don...!

Tires or tire pressure FIRST..

You have said it yourself
when commenting that the tires lock into road irregularities..
Good radials do not do this with groves parallel to your
direction of travel.

Can you swap front to rear.. are they all the same?

Are they all radials (4) ?

Can you borrow a set from another car to try?

Check the toe in.... a tape measure used carefully
can do this.

Is the steering gear box or linkage binding?

I'm going to say it once more, "Tires" <G>

Bob

Don wrote:

>What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire


What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it.

Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have
24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride.

-SP

Speedy Pete wrote:
> Don wrote:
>
>> What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
>> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire
>
>
> What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it.
>
> Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have
> 24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride.
>
> -SP

dude, use the pressure in the manual - don't monkey about with guesswork
or "what the tire guy says". honda engineers know a good deal more
about the handling dynamics of their vehicles than the average rubber
slinger.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 21:04:04 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> Speedy Pete wrote:
>> Don wrote:
>>
>>> What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
>>> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire
>>
>>
>> What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it.
>>
>> Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have
>> 24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride.
>>
>> -SP
>
> dude, use the pressure in the manual - don't monkey about with guesswork
> or "what the tire guy says". honda engineers know a good deal more
> about the handling dynamics of their vehicles than the average rubber
> slinger.

That's one of my biggest pet peeves with Fast-Lube and tire places these
days... The recommended pressures are right on the inside of the door.
What makes it so damned hard to follow them?

Every time I have an oil change done, I have to re-check all of the tires
to make sure they are not over-filled.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 04:32:48 GMT, Speedy Pete > wrote:


>Don wrote:

>>What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
>> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire


>What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it.

>Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have
>24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride.

They have 24-28 in their manuals to avoid overinflation wear. Tire shops
tend to inflate every single tire to 32-35 psi so that they don't have to
bother with checking the manufacturer recomended pressure. If the tires wear
out faster, so much the better.

Keep in mind that it is *volume* that matters in having the tire of the
proper shape and to avoid over/underinflation wear. A car with more weight
will require greater pressure to achieve the same volume and, of course, a
car with less than the tire's maximum rated load will require less pressure.
Tire shops ignore this.