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Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test



 
 
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  #61  
Old January 16th 18, 10:16 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:54:16 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

> You;ve misinterpreted basic economics.


Naah. I took the class. I got an A. If it's "elastic", it follows the
supply and demand curve, where prices are set based purely on demand.

If it's not elastic, then all bets are off.

Marketing's job is to make things non elastic, and they do a great job of
that, given, for example, people seem to wait in long lines just to spend
twice as much on an iPhone as it's actually worth.

> There is a demand curve
> where demand is a function of price.


Assuming it's perfectly elastic.

> But that's a single curve for
> a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not
> imply that there is no relationship between the price of various
> different versions of that product that differ in specification
> and price.


Nobody said otherwise.
If there's something "different" (even the color for example), then it's
different.

What you seem to be discussing is the difference between a commodity (where
even the color is unimportant), and the opposite of a commodity:
<https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opposite-of-the-word-commodity>

The curves are completely different in their elasticity.
A brake shoe "should" be a commodity (but might not be).

> For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak.
> There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for
> select steak.


Again, same concept as above.
Those are three different things because demand is different for them.
There could even be a curve for Australian versus British Prime Steak.

If it were a commodity, then the curve is more elastic than if it's not.

> They are separate curves and the prime steak curve
> is the higher price curve.


Nobody ever said the curves aren't different for different products.
They can even be different in different locales.
For example, whale steak may have a different curve in Japan than in India.

> Draw a chart and you'll have three
> curves, the prime curve being the highest.


Nobody ever said that each product has its own supply and demand curves.
If you consider a pink iPhone different than a black one, it can have a
different curve.

The Marketing people figure all this out for us and price accordingly to
get the best marginal utility out of us.

> What you're saying is
> there is no correlation between higher price between select steak
> and prime steak.


You inferred that. Incorrectly. Nobody said it but you.

> It wold be rare to find the better prime steak
> that sells at the price of a select steak, there is a direct
> correlation.


What we need to discuss is brake pads and shoes.

They would actually have different curves if they were different, or, more
to the point, if people *believed* they were different.

For example, if you thought an EE pad was **** (as I did), then it would be
worthless to you at any price, even at free. But if you thought an EE pad
could be as good as an FF pad at braking, then the curve is completely
different.

At the moment, the only logical conclusion anyone can scientifically make,
is that all pads we can buy the USA are 'about the same' (give or take)
because we have no way of telling them apart if we had both in our hands
(or on the web).

In the end, Clare did say pretty much to get any shoe that "says" it meets
OEM Quality - so that means all OEM Quality shoes should have the same
demand curve.

This is only enginering, logic, and economics.
No black art should be involved in buying brake pads and shoes.
Ads
  #62  
Old January 17th 18, 12:20 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

> You did when you said:
>
>
> "I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
> marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
>
> Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
> steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
> from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
> a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
> The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
> to brake pads, certainly to some extent.


You didn't understand a single word I said.
Either that, or you just want to argue.

We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to
be different.

If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be
a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand
curve.

If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people,
then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as
one) commodity-based demand curve.

Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake.
I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.

I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet
thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.

It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.

If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different.
If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.

This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.
  #63  
Old January 17th 18, 05:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 363
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
> trader_4 wrote:
>
>> Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
>> to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

>
> Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
> just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
> what I was aiming for here.


You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.

The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
rectify this *knowledge deficit*.


--

Xeno
  #64  
Old January 17th 18, 06:07 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:34:08 +1100, Xeno >
wrote:

>On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
>> trader_4 wrote:
>>
>>> Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
>>> to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

>>
>> Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
>> just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
>> what I was aiming for here.

>
>You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
>*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.
>
>The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
>that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
>away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
>rectify this *knowledge deficit*.




"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"
  #65  
Old January 17th 18, 01:23 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 363
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 17/01/2018 4:07 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:34:08 +1100, Xeno >
> wrote:
>
>> On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
>>> trader_4 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
>>>> to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.
>>>
>>> Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
>>> just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
>>> what I was aiming for here.

>>
>> You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
>> *inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.
>>
>> The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
>> that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
>> away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
>> rectify this *knowledge deficit*.

>
>
>
> "antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
> ON!!!"
>

LOL, they will indeed!

--

Xeno
  #66  
Old January 17th 18, 03:54 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 488
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 1/16/2018 5:20 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST),
> trader_4 wrote:
>
>> You did when you said:
>>
>>
>> "I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
>> marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
>>
>> Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
>> steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
>> from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
>> a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
>> The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
>> to brake pads, certainly to some extent.

>
> You didn't understand a single word I said.
> Either that, or you just want to argue.
>
> We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to
> be different.
>
> If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be
> a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand
> curve.
>
> If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people,
> then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as
> one) commodity-based demand curve.
>
> Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake.
> I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.
>
> I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet
> thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.
>
> It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.
>
> If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different.
> If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.
>
> This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.
>


The exam question you missed was Veblen.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #67  
Old January 17th 18, 04:07 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:54:51 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:

> The exam question you missed was Veblen.


I never heard of Veblen ... here's some information I just read about him.
In a word, unconventional.

Thorstein Veblen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

The Social Economics of Thorstein Veblen
http://michael-hudson.com/2012/10/th...rstein-veblen/

Thorstein Veblen | Economics | 1857-1929
https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/project...acch09_01.html
  #68  
Old January 18th 18, 08:02 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:47:38 -0000 (UTC),
Mad Roger wrote:
> The scientific question is how do we correctly interpret why EE pads seem
> to outperform FF pads in this police cruiser study done in 2000?
> https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf


I called Centric at 626-961-5775 where I'm told the Centric parts for this
vehicle a
* Rear shoes: 11105890 ceramic
* Front pads: 10504360 ceramic

I spoke to Centric tech support multiple times today, who knew all about
the Michigan police cruiser studies, SAE J866 Chase Test, and SAE J2784
compliance, and the AMECA Edge Codes (aka DOT Edge Codes).

They gave me the DOT Edge Codes after calling the warehouse:
* CENTRIC 11105890 shoes = 111AA9101FF30N17 which is CEN 111AA9101 FF
* CENTRIC 10504360 pads = 15AA2256FE48A17 which his CEN 15AA2256 FE

The rear shoes have a registered material of #161379 which matches:
* CEN 111AA9101 FF
* CEN 112AA9101 FF

There is a large discrepancy in the front shoes since they match to #161583
* CEN 15AA2256 GF (this is not EF which is what is printed on the pad)
* CEN 15AA8241 GF

After multiple calls to Ameca and to Centric (I've left out the engineer's
names from this and all my reports on purpose), there must be a mistake
which they'll iron out between themselves.

I asked CENTRIC what "OEM Quality" means, and the engineer told me "mostly
marketing". I asked if there was a spec of clay in the pad if they could
call it ceramic, and he agreed.

He told me a lot of other stuff also, such as the fact they don't sell to
Rock Auto nor to Amazon, so if you get Centric parts there, it's through a
reseller of some sort.

The technical engineer did tell me that Centric puts all brake shoes on a
dyno and tests them thoroughly to assure they meet OEM Quality, but it's
not like a manufacturer gives them a spec. They just know how brake shoes
and pads should work.

If you do not believe any of this, I don't blame you because it goes
against all your intuition but intuition is almost always wrong on highly
marketed items because it's not intuition that drives the thought process
anymore - it's marketing.

But all you have to do to confirm is make the same phone calls I did.
Just ask for tech support when the operator answers the phone.

AMECA +1-202-898-0145
CENTRIC +1-626-961-5775
  #69  
Old January 19th 18, 09:22 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

Mad Roger posted for all of us...


> I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
> Know what they taught me?
>
> a. Defensive driving
> b. Noise pollution is bad
> c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
> ambulances)
>


Then you have been poorly trained. Our company had mandatory EVOC (Emergency
Vehicle Operations Course) training by a certified instructor &
recertification. PA is a "due regard" state. Look it up. You can't help if
the vehicle is crashed. You are responsible for the crew and victims.

--
Tekkie
  #70  
Old January 19th 18, 09:45 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...


>
> "antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
> ON!!!"
>
>


Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were
burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to
keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.

--
Tekkie
 




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