Offboard hybridization

On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:25:03 -0700 (PDT), AD > wrote:

>On Sep 8, 4:30Â*pm, 1 Lucky Texan > wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 1:58Â*am, AD > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
>> > lugging a huge battery onboard
>> > when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
>> > of a purpose built trailers.
>>
>> > This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
>> > problem for BRZ in winter
>> > by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
>> > subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
>> > plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
>> > of folks
>> > insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.
>>
>> > With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
>> > of the battery should reliably
>> > anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
>> > spit between the wheels.
>>
>> > Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
>> > 600 kilo worth of meat
>> > helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
>> > double, but
>> > then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
>> > side)
>>
>> I think Chrysler and others have done related concept vehicles - where
>> different components are hooked together. Like turning your small
>> commuter into a passenger van etc.
>>
>> I suspect there are a lot of reasons why we don't see the kind of
>> innovation you're suggesting. Safety regs being one of them. Why try
>> something radically different if it opens you up to risks your
>> competitors aren't taking? In a climate where one or a dozen idiots, a
>> frenzied media, Â*and 'maybe' a coupla sticking accelerator pedals can
>> almost bankrupt Toyota? I mean, we now have to have cars with
>> collision avoidance and back-up cameras. Imagine the average person
>> trying to regularly and SAFELY hook up to and drive with a trailer -
>> particularly one that may have huge amounts of battery energy stored
>> on board. And where do you park this thing when not being used?
>> I bet there are terabytes of cool ideas from automotive engineers that
>> are shelved because cars have to be built to easily and safely be
>> operated by folks that have the mental capacity of a distracted 3rd
>> grader.
>
>Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
>help myself.
>
>In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
>For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
>models only:
>so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
>that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
>solidifies
>and the only way for you to get off the ****ing motorway is by
>electric
>propulsion.
>
>Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
>of traffic congestion
>they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
>traffic.
Idiots that are too stupid or cheap to add winter fuel conditioner
shouldn't drive diesels. And a pre-heater never hurt either.

On Sep 10, 5:04*am, wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:25:03 -0700 (PDT), AD > wrote:
> >On Sep 8, 4:30*pm, 1 Lucky Texan > wrote:
> >> On Sep 8, 1:58*am, AD > wrote:
>
> >> > A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
> >> > lugging a huge battery onboard
> >> > when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
> >> > of a purpose built trailers.
>
> >> > This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
> >> > problem for BRZ in winter
> >> > by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
> >> > subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
> >> > plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
> >> > of folks
> >> > insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.
>
> >> > With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
> >> > of the battery should reliably
> >> > anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
> >> > spit between the wheels.
>
> >> > Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
> >> > 600 kilo worth of meat
> >> > helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
> >> > double, but
> >> > then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
> >> > side)
>
> >> I think Chrysler and others have done related concept vehicles - where
> >> different components are hooked together. Like turning your small
> >> commuter into a passenger van etc.
>
> >> I suspect there are a lot of reasons why we don't see the kind of
> >> innovation you're suggesting. Safety regs being one of them. Why try
> >> something radically different if it opens you up to risks your
> >> competitors aren't taking? In a climate where one or a dozen idiots, a
> >> frenzied media, *and 'maybe' a coupla sticking accelerator pedals can
> >> almost bankrupt Toyota? I mean, we now have to have cars with
> >> collision avoidance and back-up cameras. Imagine the average person
> >> trying to regularly and SAFELY hook up to and drive with a trailer -
> >> particularly one that may have huge amounts of battery energy stored
> >> on board. And where do you park this thing when not being used?
> >> I bet there are terabytes of cool ideas from automotive engineers that
> >> are shelved because cars have to be built to easily and safely be
> >> operated by folks that have the mental capacity of a distracted 3rd
> >> grader.
>
> >Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
> >help myself.
>
> >In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
> >For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
> >models only:
> >so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
> >that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
> >solidifies
> >and the only way for you to get off the ****ing motorway is by
> >electric
> >propulsion.
>
> >Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
> >of traffic congestion
> >they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
> >traffic.
>
> *Idiots that are too stupid or cheap to add winter fuel conditioner
> shouldn't drive diesels. And a pre-heater never hurt either.

Pre heater would not do you much good if the diesel solidifies in
the tank, diesel pump or the diesel lines going into the engine.
But, then, it's more of an issue for canadians.

Pre heater also adds complexity. You should've seen the guy poking in
the MMI menus on A6 to program the thing to start in a few minutes.

On Sep 9, 5:57*pm, ben91932 > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 11:58*pm, AD > wrote:
>
> > A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
> > lugging a huge battery onboard
> > when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
> > of a purpose built trailers.
>
> It's been tried before.
> This guy:http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
> built a cool one from scratch.
> Others have tried it as well, and the consensus of those I am aware of
> is that the frictional and aero losses of the trailer offsets the
> expected gains.
> Same goes for mounting a large generator on a trailer to run an ev.
> HTH
> Ben

Built in palo alto as expected

The vehicle propelled looks like porsche boxter, I did not know
porsche made any EVs :-)

On 09/12/2011 04:28 AM, AD wrote:
> On Sep 10, 5:04�am, wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:25:03 -0700 (PDT), > wrote:
>>> On Sep 8, 4:30�pm, 1 Lucky > wrote:
>>>> On Sep 8, 1:58�am, > wrote:
>>
>>>>> A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
>>>>> lugging a huge battery onboard
>>>>> when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
>>>>> of a purpose built trailers.
>>
>>>>> This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
>>>>> problem for BRZ in winter
>>>>> by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
>>>>> subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
>>>>> plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
>>>>> of folks
>>>>> insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.
>>
>>>>> With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
>>>>> of the battery should reliably
>>>>> anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
>>>>> spit between the wheels.
>>
>>>>> Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
>>>>> 600 kilo worth of meat
>>>>> helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
>>>>> double, but
>>>>> then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
>>>>> side)
>>
>>>> I think Chrysler and others have done related concept vehicles - where
>>>> different components are hooked together. Like turning your small
>>>> commuter into a passenger van etc.
>>
>>>> I suspect there are a lot of reasons why we don't see the kind of
>>>> innovation you're suggesting. Safety regs being one of them. Why try
>>>> something radically different if it opens you up to risks your
>>>> competitors aren't taking? In a climate where one or a dozen idiots, a
>>>> frenzied media, �and 'maybe' a coupla sticking accelerator pedals can
>>>> almost bankrupt Toyota? I mean, we now have to have cars with
>>>> collision avoidance and back-up cameras. Imagine the average person
>>>> trying to regularly and SAFELY hook up to and drive with a trailer -
>>>> particularly one that may have huge amounts of battery energy stored
>>>> on board. And where do you park this thing when not being used?
>>>> I bet there are terabytes of cool ideas from automotive engineers that
>>>> are shelved because cars have to be built to easily and safely be
>>>> operated by folks that have the mental capacity of a distracted 3rd
>>>> grader.
>>
>>> Carl, I hate the idea of a suburu hybrid so much that I just could not
>>> help myself.
>>
>>> In fact I hate it even more than the idea of a subaru diesel.
>>> For all I care they could've stuck the hybrid powertrain into diesel
>>> models only:
>>> so that you could have some alternative means of propulsion when
>>> that tractor of a car warms up in winter, that, or when the diesel
>>> solidifies
>>> and the only way for you to get off the ****ing motorway is by
>>> electric
>>> propulsion.
>>
>>> Hybrid powertrain should be mandatory on diesels to mitigate the risk
>>> of traffic congestion
>>> they create in below zero F temps by stalling and blocking the
>>> traffic.
>>
>> �Idiots that are too stupid or cheap to add winter fuel conditioner
>> shouldn't drive diesels. And a pre-heater never hurt either.
>
> Pre heater would not do you much good if

"would"??? "if"??? you're obviously not speaking from experience.


> the diesel solidifies in
> the tank, diesel pump or the diesel lines going into the engine.
> But, then, it's more of an issue for canadians.

and yet despite your fud, the canadians, [and russians, and alaskans]
seem to manage to run diesels throughout the winter. thus, you're
either willfully blind to reality, or you're just a troll seeking to
help keep americans stuck with low-efficiency vehicles while we waste
our money on foreign oil.


>
> Pre heater also adds complexity. You should've seen the guy poking in
> the MMI menus on A6 to program the thing to start in a few minutes.

as opposed to some guy poking about on the internet trying to find out
whether canadia shuts down every winter because he thinks they're so
retarded, they can't figure out what "diesel #1" is?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Sep 8, 2:58*am, AD > wrote:
> A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
> lugging a huge battery onboard
> when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
> of a purpose built trailers.
>
> This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
> problem for BRZ in winter
> by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
> subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
> plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
> of folks
> insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.
>
> With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
> of the battery should reliably
> anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
> spit between the wheels.
>
> Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
> 600 kilo worth of meat
> helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
> double, but
> then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
> side)

There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
levels of thrust.

Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.

Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
weight.

I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass. a Trailer capacble
of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the
car.

Bill

On 09/13/2011 07:47 AM, weelliott wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2:58�am, > wrote:
>> A thought occurred to me last night: why do you need to bother with
>> lugging a huge battery onboard
>> when you could just flush the battery and the motor(s) into the floor
>> of a purpose built trailers.
>>
>> This solves the the hard winter starts problem and awd (lack of it)
>> problem for BRZ in winter
>> by providing 4x6 layout and allows for a 6x6 setup for the rest of the
>> subaru lineup. Just hitch up the trailer,
>> plug the trailer cable and (hopefully) go. But then, there is an issue
>> of folks
>> insisting on running all season tires on the trailer year round.
>>
>> With a two wheel trailer you could have a 6x8 and 8x8 setups: the heft
>> of the battery should reliably
>> anchor the trailer to the ground allowing for a perfect 50:50 weight
>> spit between the wheels.
>>
>> Me thinks having a horse trailer would work even better since there is
>> 600 kilo worth of meat
>> helping the wheels to cut through the snow (multiple that by 2 for a
>> double, but
>> then there is an issue of a unperfect weight distribution side to
>> side)
>
> There are issues with having a trailer provide driving force. It plays
> with the handling balance of the car if you start to get to meaningful
> levels of thrust.
>
> Toyota actually had an EV RAV-4 for fleet use about a decade ago. It
> had a generator trailer that worked pretty well, but it wasn't a
> pusher. It was just a generator with cables that ran to the RAV-4.
>
> Trailers are not zero load as far as rolling resistance, aero load, or
> weight.
>
> I don't think a subaru should ever be hooked up to a horse trailer.
> Even if it had its own power. The car just has too little weight and
> wheelbase to handle a trailer with that much mass.

you've been brainwashed.

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/02/the-great-american-anti-towing-conspiracy/>

<http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-the-great-american-towing-conspiracy-lives-edition/>

i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
with an 1100cc fwd car. the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
1st gear, but it made it. and the vehicle handling was better than a
traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

sure, a more powerful vehicle would have been nice to have, and
certainly a good deal faster up hill, but our culturally ingrained fear
and trepidation about needing 5+ liters of v8 to tow <3000lbs of trailer
is without foundation, and frankly, after that experience, completely
ridiculous.


> a Trailer capacble
> of handing 600 kilos of horse, with electric motors and batteries
> likely weighs nearly 2000 kilos completely loaded. You're not going to
> catch me driving a car on 16 inch wheels with 205 or 225 series tires
> sheparding along a trailer that weighs as much as, or more than the
> car.
>
> Bill

* "duallies" are a ridiculous concept. tires don't improve yaw
stability, suspension does. as long as detroit keeps churning out
trucks with leaf spring rears, we're always going to have towing yaw
stability problems.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

>
> i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
> trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
> with an 1100cc fwd car. *the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
> 1st gear, but it made it. *and the vehicle handling was better than a
> traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
> subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.

I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
belief.
Ben

On 09/13/2011 08:59 AM, ben91932 wrote:
>
>>
>> i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
>> trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
>> with an 1100cc fwd car. �the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
>> 1st gear, but it made it. �and the vehicle handling was better than a
>> traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
>> subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.
>
> I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
> car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
> But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
> belief.
> Ben

simple leaf spring suspensions yaw - that's one of the fundamental
weaknesses of that configuration. multi-link suspension simply doesn't,
so it makes for a much more stable towing platform. i call that
stability "better handling", but you might have a different word for it.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT), ben91932
> wrote:

>
>>
>> i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
>> trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
>> with an 1100cc fwd car. Â*the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
>> 1st gear, but it made it. Â*and the vehicle handling was better than a
>> traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
>> subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.
>
>I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
>car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
>But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
>belief.
>Ben
I'd carry a load with leaf springs over coil or independent ANY DAY
OF THE WEEK.

On 09/13/2011 03:25 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT), ben91932
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> i have personally towed a [hydraulic braked] twin axle three horse
>>> trailer, load: one ornery 200lb pig and several full size straw bales,
>>> with an 1100cc fwd car. the steepest grade was about 25% and we took in
>>> 1st gear, but it made it. and the vehicle handling was better than a
>>> traditional truck because its independent rear suspension was not
>>> subject to yaw like leaf springs are*.
>>
>> I have no doubt that you were able to tow a big trailer with a small
>> car.. I have done it dozens of times myself.
>> But to say that the handling was better than a truck is absurd beyond
>> belief.
>> Ben
> I'd carry a load with leaf springs over coil or independent ANY DAY
> OF THE WEEK.

well, leaf springs have the advantage of being dirt cheap and dirt cheap
to make progressive. and for the average american "truck", that never
gets loaded much more than grocery shopping and never tows and somehow
doesn't have to conform to any rollover safety testing or handling
standards, they sure are a great solution for the manufacturer.

but if you've ever driven [off road] in anything that has a real rear
end, like the hummer or even some of the wacky euro stuff, you'd be
singing a different song.

don't get me wrong - i have a leaf reared truck. i kind of like it.
and i like that it handles static loads easily. but its dynamic load
handling is just abysmal relative to any of the above. absolutely abysmal.

and don't get me started on ground clearance.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum