Intermittent Engine Starting Problem

1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where
it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped
off. Headlights and accessories appear strong. All fluids topped
off. But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked,
but all I heard was a click under the hood. No engine turnover.

Because of this, It had to be towed to PepBoys where they "diagnosed"
it and replaced the starter motor. Symptoms came back next time it
rained. Returned it to PepBoys, they apologized and gave a discount
toward another repair, to replace the solenoid. Truck worked for 2
weeks, then the symptom came back again. At least this time it's
stuck in my driveway. Any idea what is going on!?!

constitution wrote:
> 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where
> it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped
> off. Headlights and accessories appear strong. All fluids topped
> off. But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked,
> but all I heard was a click under the hood. No engine turnover.

Presuming you mean it would not crank when you say "it would not start".
It sounds like a connection is being affected by humidity. Suggest that
the next time you encounter this, you turn on the headlights *while* you
try starting the car. We can narrow down the location of the bad connection
depending on whether or not the headlights dim or extinguish when you turn
the key and get a click.

--
Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast.
That's why stereo has two channels.

Yes that's correct, the symptom is that the engine will not crank.
But a click is heard when I turn the key which I assume is the new
solenoid. I tried your suggestion of starting the truck with the
headlights on. It started right up, with only minimal dimming of the
lights. But then oddly, all subsequent tries to start it failed- with
or without lights on.

If it's a humidity problem, which parts would be susceptible? Or
could it be a bad ignition switch? (it is easy to turn without a key
and sometimes the key gets stuck) Or could it be a bad clutch switch?


On Apr 18, 3:32 pm, clifto > wrote:
> constitution wrote:
> > 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where
> > it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped
> > off. Headlights and accessories appear strong. All fluids topped
> > off. But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked,
> > but all I heard was a click under the hood. No engine turnover.
>
> Presuming you mean it would not crank when you say "it would not start".
> It sounds like a connection is being affected by humidity. Suggest that
> the next time you encounter this, you turn on the headlights *while* you
> try starting the car. We can narrow down the location of the bad connection
> depending on whether or not the headlights dim or extinguish when you turn
> the key and get a click.
>
> --
> Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast.
> That's why stereo has two channels.

constitution wrote:
> On Apr 18, 3:32 pm, clifto > wrote:
>> It sounds like a connection is being affected by humidity. Suggest that
>> the next time you encounter this, you turn on the headlights *while* you
>> try starting the car. We can narrow down the location of the bad connection
>> depending on whether or not the headlights dim or extinguish when you turn
>> the key and get a click.
>
> Yes that's correct, the symptom is that the engine will not crank.
> But a click is heard when I turn the key which I assume is the new
> solenoid. I tried your suggestion of starting the truck with the
> headlights on. It started right up, with only minimal dimming of the
> lights. But then oddly, all subsequent tries to start it failed- with
> or without lights on.

What we need to know is how the lights behaved during the failure. If the
lights went dim or completely out when the key was turned and the solenoid
clicked, there's probably a bad connection between battery and starter
(including cables, grounds, etc.); if they didn't dim, it's probably a
connection to the starter or the solenoid not involving the battery.

> If it's a humidity problem, which parts would be susceptible?

I'd guess mechanical connections, such as cable-to-battery.

> Or
> could it be a bad ignition switch? (it is easy to turn without a key
> and sometimes the key gets stuck)

Possible but unlikely. What you describe sounds like the locking portion
(as opposed to the electrical portion) being well worn. The electrical
part of the switch doesn't handle much power; the "click" usually means
there's just enough power getting to the solenoid to actuate the
solenoid, but not enough for the solenoid to be able to actuate the
starter motor. The electrical part of the ignition switch is unlikely
to be able to pull that off; likely it'll either work 100% or not at all.

> Or could it be a bad clutch switch?

I'd say "unlikely" for the same reason as for the ignition switch.

--
Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast.
That's why stereo has two channels.

=========
========
On Apr 18, 1:52�pm, constitution > wrote:
> 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. *Truck developed weird symptom where
> it would not start when it was raining and cold. *Battery is topped
> off. *Headlights and accessories appear strong. *All fluids topped
> off. *But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked,
> but all I heard was a click under the hood. *No engine turnover.
>
> Because of this, It had to be towed to PepBoys where they "diagnosed"
> it and replaced the starter motor. *Symptoms came back next time it
> rained. *Returned it to PepBoys, they apologized and gave a discount
> toward another repair, to replace the solenoid. *Truck worked for 2
> weeks, then the symptom came back again. *At least this time it's
> stuck in my driveway. *Any idea what is going on!?!

======
======

Questions::

1.
Do you have a battery charger if needed?
2.
Do you have a volt meter if needed?
..
..
3.
This symptom ONLY happens when it rains?
4.
if so....
Does it happen with both light and heavy downpours?
5.
THIS symptomONLY happens when it rains rite?
6.
Have you "tried" takeing the Battery cable off overnite
to see if the truck would start the next day when the cable
is reattached?
7.
Have you "tried" cranking the truck, THEN unhooking the
battery cable, in order to see if the trucks motor still runs
without the battery cable on?
8.
THIS SYMPTOM ONLY happens when it rains,,rite??
9.
Has the battery been tested by the ole AutoZonedOut
for FREE, in order to confirm it's integrety?
10.
THIS SYMPTOM NEVER happens when it hasen't rained
for at least 2 days?
11.
Have you tried cranking the truck on a dry day, when the
truck is cranking good, and using a water hose to try and
and locate a malfunction from the battery down to the starter?
12.
Were ANY other repairs or ANY service work done to the
truck jest prior to the symptom?



~~Preliminary Diagnosis~~

Preliminary diagnosis indicates further diagnosis is needed.
In order to enact a pinpoint diagnosis, the technician assigned
has requested approval for further diagnostic tests, as well as
a more detailed "symptom background" from the most frequent
driver of the vehicle.

The above questions have been submitted by the technician
in order to facilitate a pinpoint diagnosis and maintain a low
cost diagnostic, the customers funds being best invested in
repair.

The following list are the primary concerns of interest after the
Preliminary Inspection.

battery connections
starter relay
ignition relay
faulty chassis grounds
chafed wiring
battery
starter "assembly"
customer



~:~
MarshMonster
~sips his crown'n'coke....takes a toke.........looks out the
french doors at the waterhose~
~:~

Thanks Clifto, here's what I found: the lights do not dim when the
engine fails to crank. So I will begin checking connections to
starter and to the solenoid. The actual battery connections are
solid.


> Do you have a battery charger if needed?
Yes, I have a charger and recently applied it to the battery until
full.


> Do you have a volt meter if needed?
Yes


> This symptom ONLY happens when it rains?> Does it happen with both light and heavy downpours?
Seems that during and after any type of rain it will fail to crank.
Even though there's never visible water under the hood. After a day
or so of sun, it is more likely to start. Now, this weather could be
a coincidence, but so far appears to be correct.


> Have you "tried" takeing the Battery cable off overnite
> to see if the truck would start the next day when the cable
> is reattached?
No, I will try this.


> Have you "tried" cranking the truck, THEN unhooking the
> battery cable, in order to see if the trucks motor still runs
> without the battery cable on?
> Have you tried cranking the truck on a dry day, when the
> truck is cranking good, and using a water hose to try and
> and locate a malfunction from the battery down to the starter?
No, I look forward to trying these after it successfully starts (it's
been rainy here)


> Has the battery been tested by the ole AutoZonedOut
> for FREE, in order to confirm it's integrety?
No, but all indications here are that it's ok. Next time it's on the
road I can do this.


> THIS SYMPTOM NEVER happens when it hasen't rained
> for at least 2 days?
No


> Were ANY other repairs or ANY service work done to the
> truck jest prior to the symptom?
Nothing just prior. Late last year a new oil pan & gasket were put
on.



> battery connections
> starter relay
> ignition relay
> faulty chassis grounds
> chafed wiring
> battery
> starter "assembly"
> customer

Thanks so far for the help.

constitution wrote:
> Thanks Clifto, here's what I found: the lights do not dim when the
> engine fails to crank. So I will begin checking connections to
> starter and to the solenoid. The actual battery connections are
> solid.

You just proved that.

Don't forget to check the grounding.

--
Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast.
That's why stereo has two channels.

I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the
problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I
towed it back to PepBoys (it's still under warranty from the last
starter motor and solenoid replacements.) Their diagnosis came back
the same- that the new (reman.) starter motor was also bad. So they
popped in a new one at no charge.

I have to admit, it runs fine now, and sounds better upon start up.
But I can't help but wonder if the same problem will come back in a
few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin
any motor that is put in.

"constitution" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the
> problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I
> towed it back to PepBoys (it's still under warranty from the last
> starter motor and solenoid replacements.) Their diagnosis came back
> the same- that the new (reman.) starter motor was also bad. So they
> popped in a new one at no charge.
>
> I have to admit, it runs fine now, and sounds better upon start up.
> But I can't help but wonder if the same problem will come back in a
> few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin
> any motor that is put in.

Pep Boys, like some other FLAPS, does not have a sterling reputation
and track record on some of their parts.

If it happens again, I suggest you find a good local alternator and
starter shop and see if they can rebuild it so it will last. You can of
course try the rebuilds from a supplier like NAPA, as they usually
have a better name in the industry.

In article .com>,
constitution > wrote:
>I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the
>problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I
>towed it back to PepBoys (it's still under warranty from the last
>starter motor and solenoid replacements.) Their diagnosis came back
>the same- that the new (reman.) starter motor was also bad. So they
>popped in a new one at no charge.
>
>I have to admit, it runs fine now, and sounds better upon start up.
>But I can't help but wonder if the same problem will come back in a
>few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin
>any motor that is put in.

It is, and that underlying problem is that Pep Boys is selling you
shoddy rebuilds. Go to a real rebuilder and avoid the chain stores.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."