German Hybrid Vehicles ??

Where are they? When will they appear? Will VW build any hybrids?

>
> Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?
>
For a couple of reasons:

1. Full hybrids such as the Toyota Prius can be modified so that they can be
run during local shopping trips in all-electric mode, recharged overnight,
and/or used like a regular hybrid for longer trips. This concept is called
PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), and some privately owned Prius
models have already been converted and are getting as much as 180 MPG
combined highway/city mileage. IMO the PHEV concept will be showing up in
automobile showrooms eventually.

2. Because the fuel efficient hybrids (some are not) do less harm to the
environment.

Regards.

Johann Koenig wrote:
> On Friday September 23 at 05:52pm
> "Papa" > wrote:
>
>
>>Where are they? When will they appear? Will VW build any hybrids?
>
>
> Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?

Because half the population of the US can't buy one?

--
Mike Smith

Don't think we will ever seen them because VW engineers and electrics don't
mix well... NEVER have NEVER will!(lol)

couldn't resist


"Papa" > wrote in message
news
> Where are they? When will they appear? Will VW build any hybrids?
>

In article et>,
Papa > wrote:
>>
>> Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?

In your dreams! Most TDis only get 40s mpg and the top is around 50mpg,
not 50mpg min or better. You can get japanese gas engine cars that do
40s+ mpg now.


>For a couple of reasons:
>
>1. Full hybrids such as the Toyota Prius can be modified so that they can be
>run during local shopping trips in all-electric mode, recharged overnight,
>and/or used like a regular hybrid for longer trips. This concept is called
>PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), and some privately owned Prius
>models have already been converted and are getting as much as 180 MPG
>combined highway/city mileage. IMO the PHEV concept will be showing up in
>automobile showrooms eventually.
>
>2. Because the fuel efficient hybrids (some are not) do less harm to the
>environment.

Hybrids are great metro vehicles. The fuel mileage isn't as good on the
highway since it uses the gas engine once you are above a certain mph.

>
>Regards.
--
Jeeps and dubs and everything's nice...

Papa wrote:
> >
> > Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?
> >
> For a couple of reasons:
>
> 1. Full hybrids such as the Toyota Prius can be modified so that they can be
> run during local shopping trips in all-electric mode, recharged overnight,
> and/or used like a regular hybrid for longer trips. This concept is called
> PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), and some privately owned Prius
> models have already been converted and are getting as much as 180 MPG
> combined highway/city mileage. IMO the PHEV concept will be showing up in
> automobile showrooms eventually.

Does the electricity from the wall plug is free in the USA? And it is
not necessary pollution free.

> 2. Because the fuel efficient hybrids (some are not) do less harm to the
> environment.

Not necessary. You should also count the pollution, which takes place
when you produce the car and scrap it afterwards. And the hybrids carry
around huge batteries, which have limited life and are highly toxic.

Peter Parker wrote:
> In article et>,
> Papa > wrote:
> >>
> >> Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?
>
> In your dreams! Most TDis only get 40s mpg and the top is around 50mpg,
> not 50mpg min or better. You can get japanese gas engine cars that do
> 40s+ mpg now.

Oh, there are german cars, which do ~80mpg (~3l/100km) VW Lupo 3L
for example. TDI of course.

> Hybrids are great metro vehicles. The fuel mileage isn't as good on the
> highway since it uses the gas engine once you are above a certain mph.

And Lupo 3L is good at highways, there you can get even better mileage


In any case, the german manufacturers are somewhat cautios about those
autos, perhaps due to the (quite long) experience they already have
with "fuel efficient" autos.

There was a Mk3 (or even Mk2) Golf ECO, which had an engine stop/start
automatic (when waiting at intersections for example). You stop and
hold brakes - engine stops. You release it - starts itself again.
Somehow nobody wanted it, even if it really did save fuel.
Then we got the Lupo 3L, which consumes only ~3L diesel. Again -
somehow nobody wants it.

Ok, they are more expensive to produce, and thus are sold for couple of
thousands more. And if you want to save, it is really hard to give more
money upfront just to save more later.

The same story is with the Prius. I don't see many of them here in
Europe. Maybe one in two or three months. And I live in the city, with
lot's and lot's of cars. And 1 liter of petrol costs 1.36euro over here
(oil companies say, that due to a fuel shortage in the usa), and will
be go up to the ~1.80euro by the end of the year.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:36:37 -0400, "Woodchuck"
> wrote:

>Don't think we will ever seen them because VW engineers and electrics don't
>mix well... NEVER have NEVER will!(lol)
>
>couldn't resist


Actually, a totally valid point. That said, check todays
headlines...in particular the one about Porsche buying a 20% stake in
VW. Among other things, they mentioned joint development of hybrids.
Sad in a way. I prefer to see the troubled VW focus its attention on
further perfecting its already excellent diesel technology and not get
waysided by the hybrid fad.

Was looking at an Autoweek at a friends house this weekend. It had a
little blurb on the break even points for 3 hybrids and a diesal
Beetle. With their assumptions, the Beetle would be pay for the
premium in acquisition cost in a little less than 3 years. All of the
hybrids (Civic, Prius, and one other which I forgot) took at least 7
years to reach the break even point. They didn't include the US
federal tax credit, which expires this year, nor the huge cost of
replacing the batteries at the 8-10 year point. Those two items likely
balance out. They also used a low dollar cost for fuel. But the point
remains, in real world situations, a diesel makes more sense, for more
people, than a hybrid.

As an engineer, I'm all for new technology, but lets make sure its
good, not just sexy.

David Glos

>
> Electricity costs energy to produce, unless you're doing solar or wind
> (or tidal, or geothermal, etc). Whats it cost to 'fill up' an EV? I'd
> much rather have a TDi Lupo than a Prius, I imagine they're about the
> same size. If a Lupo is about the size of a MK1 Rabbit, it'd be
> perfect. I don't know how the Prius handles, but I've heard the Insight
> handles like crap because of the inboard rear wheels.
>

While it is true that electricity costs energy to produce, the cost of using
today's modern batteries is much less than the cost of fossil fuel,
including diesel, and a whole lot more environmentally friendly. Check it
out. I suggest the US Department of Energy webpage at
http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleanciti..._benefits.html as a good first
look, followed by The California Cars Initiative's webpage
http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html. In addition, you might also take a
look at an article from MixedPower.com at
http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.ph...rticle&sid=628

>
> If I lived in a 'metro' area, I'd be using public transportation and my
> bicycle. I don't, and I still ride my bike to town as often as
> possible. If you really care, fund public transportation and encourage
> them to use more fuel efficient/environmentally efficient substitutes.
>

I ride my bike daily, but some of us find it necessary to travel further
than a few miles every day, and in areas where public transportation is not
available. This is hardly a rare situation in the USA. However, this strays
from the debate. As I stated previously, fuel efficient hybrids do
significantly less harm to the environment than vehicles that use nothing
but fossil fuels.

The "Lupo" is not sold in the USA, where I live. Even if it were, I wouldn't
buy it because from the reports I have read, it is an uncomfortable, cheaply
made, noisy piece of junk.

Regards.

DLGlos wrote:

> Actually, a totally valid point. That said, check todays
> headlines...in particular the one about Porsche buying a 20% stake in
> VW. Among other things, they mentioned joint development of hybrids.

But it is not a done deal yet. On the other side, Porsche suggests,
that they want to protect current technical cooperation. Porsche
Cayenne is essentially a Tuareg with a touch from porsche engineers.
The car bodies even are built in the same factory in Slovakia, but
Porsche does the final assembly steps itself.

> Sad in a way. I prefer to see the troubled VW focus its attention on
> further perfecting its already excellent diesel technology and not get
> waysided by the hybrid fad.

I would say, VW is big enough to work on both. And the biggest part of
engineering is taking place at the suppliers, such as Bosch.

If Porsche speaks about joint development (read - "add some additional
money"), then I think it will be a plus. And if the module "X" is
bugfree enough to be used in a mega expensive porsche, it will be good
enough to be used in VW. Maybe without some more advanced features,
maybe not so powerful, maybe from cheaper materials, but they will
certainly invest some time/money to understand what they are doing.

> balance out. They also used a low dollar cost for fuel. But the point
> remains, in real world situations, a diesel makes more sense, for more
> people, than a hybrid.

Why this or that? Why not both? Ok, Honda and Toyota clearly missed the
diesel train, perhaps due to a primary focus on the USA market. So,
here you a a petrol prius and petrol honda hybrid. But it does not
necessary mean, that a diesel hybrid would be impossible.

> As an engineer, I'm all for new technology, but lets make sure its
> good, not just sexy.

Try telling this to the marketing guys And the show is actually run
by them nowadays (and beancounters of course) (