CIS and low compression...

> ahhhh don't throw in the towel, just put it off for a little while if you
> are frustrated.
> you have come sooooo far too. ;-)
OK, but only if you insist!
Actually, after a good nights sleep (good for me anyway)... I decided when I
woke up this morning that I'd get an oil pressure gauge on it and just make
sure the warning buzzer sometimes going off is actually a false alarm (seems
it always is, but this does have a stubborn clicking lifter when cold too).
THEN, I will roll it out from my work area (carport, add cold air and no
hoist to my ongoing frustrations...) and push up the hill and out back out
of the way.

> clutch is doable!
Not for me, or at least not here. My dad has a small shop so maybe at some
point down the road? I'm pretty limited in what I can do, as I have
disabling spine problems (primary frustration that does shorten my tolerance
for much of the b.s. when working on about anything) and I don't like
occupying his shop as it is only a single bay. I'd want to take it apart
1st, then get parts... I'm sure it would take at least 2 days. But maybe if
at some point I know for sure he won't be working...

> Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some
> free play/slack!
That was my first thought when I suddenly went from not disengaging to zero
grip, but I never lost free play. It's a bit flaky at the firewall end.
The housing is loose there so free play is obvious even from under the hood.
Next, I wondered if over adjusting it caused a problem at the release
bearing end. But again, I never went beyond losing free play at the top of
the pedal.

> heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then
> it was going out very soon.
Back when I first got it running (towing up the road with a truck and long
chain)... the clutch was smooth and strong. I deliberately worked it hard
and it was great. Only thing was the pedal was cocked at an angle and
rubbing on the steering column (which reminds me, I gotta finish doing
something to keep that bearing from falling out again).

It was a stupid thing to do, but in hindsight I know what I did. I was
grinding 1st and reverse, so I shut it off and popped it into reverse. Then
I hit the key quickly, wanting to see if clutch was really engaged, or just
dragging enough to spin the shaft. Parking brake was on and unfortunately
holding much better than the average rabbit. I only hit the key quick, but
it make quite a huge thud, really kicked the engine against the mounts. It
told me the clutch definitely was engaged. This was the last time it got
any grip. The question now is, what's the "weakest link" (that's
WWWWWWWWWWEEkest link), because something obviously let go. Is it possible
I wiped the splines off the tranny shaft, at the clutch disc or even
something further in? Or would one assume (dangerous word, unless assuming
the worst) the teeth in the clutch disc would sheer off 1st? It's such a
backwards setup, and I've never actually had one apart. Pedal feels fine,
and there is only slight change in sound when letting clutch out. Past
experiences and general guessing can be fun here, but I don't think I'll
know without taking it apart and I'm just not in the position to do that.

Maybe I can just unbolt the tranny and slide it over for a peak. And if
it's the disc, just slip it down out, slide another one in and clamp it up.
All fixed within the hour! : ) Maybe have to adjust the lu-lu valve just
enough to keep it from overriding the trestle gear and making the
discabubulator go thunk. Drain and refill the blinker fluid. Rotate the
headlights and do a dipstick alignment. OK, all joking aside... I got an
old bumper jack around here somewhere... if I can just jack the front bumper
up enough to unbolt and change the car...

>
> bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car?
I'm not desperate to, but it would be nice to be able to. I bought it cheap
as a "no spark" car. It's not rusted, but does have some damage to the
hood. Grille's broken, but I happen to have a new one that will fit it.
Roof is excellent, interior is fair. Fixing a "no spark" car sounded right
up my ally. Well, my "no spark" car still didn't run after fixing
spark(except by towing it, and clutch worked great for starting it btw) and
has since gone into new starter, new radiator, used radiator fan, new
coolant flange, new injector seals, and it still will need at least a pair
of tires and a rod end, and now it needs a clutch? SWEEEEET. I learned a
long time ago that doing a buy/fix/sell for profit is futile so never
attempt to do that. But ideally, buy/fix/drive a little/and sell for break
even justifies the endeavor. There comes a certain satisfaction in auto
resurrection and I always know someone that ends up needing a cheap drivable
car. It's always nice when it's a win win deal and we can beat the system
we live under. If I can sell it for 600 like it sits, I'm still taking a
loss. I don't think it would even sell for that much. I'll put it on CL
and see though... maybe I'll get LUCKY! Hey, it's even Friday the 13th
today... that should help... knock on my head...

lol
yep sounds like you have been having fun! ;-)

I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it at
the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!

No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to separate
the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to drop the
transmission out of the vehicle.
Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
broken and are still attached!




"In2hoppn" > wrote in message
news:44OdnY3PxpHp8GDXnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@metrocastcab levision.com...
>> ahhhh don't throw in the towel, just put it off for a little while if you
>> are frustrated.
>> you have come sooooo far too. ;-)
> OK, but only if you insist!
> Actually, after a good nights sleep (good for me anyway)... I decided when
> I woke up this morning that I'd get an oil pressure gauge on it and just
> make sure the warning buzzer sometimes going off is actually a false alarm
> (seems it always is, but this does have a stubborn clicking lifter when
> cold too). THEN, I will roll it out from my work area (carport, add cold
> air and no hoist to my ongoing frustrations...) and push up the hill and
> out back out of the way.
>
>> clutch is doable!
> Not for me, or at least not here. My dad has a small shop so maybe at
> some point down the road? I'm pretty limited in what I can do, as I have
> disabling spine problems (primary frustration that does shorten my
> tolerance for much of the b.s. when working on about anything) and I don't
> like occupying his shop as it is only a single bay. I'd want to take it
> apart 1st, then get parts... I'm sure it would take at least 2 days. But
> maybe if at some point I know for sure he won't be working...
>
>> Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some
>> free play/slack!
> That was my first thought when I suddenly went from not disengaging to
> zero grip, but I never lost free play. It's a bit flaky at the firewall
> end. The housing is loose there so free play is obvious even from under
> the hood. Next, I wondered if over adjusting it caused a problem at the
> release bearing end. But again, I never went beyond losing free play at
> the top of the pedal.
>
>> heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then
>> it was going out very soon.
> Back when I first got it running (towing up the road with a truck and long
> chain)... the clutch was smooth and strong. I deliberately worked it hard
> and it was great. Only thing was the pedal was cocked at an angle and
> rubbing on the steering column (which reminds me, I gotta finish doing
> something to keep that bearing from falling out again).
>
> It was a stupid thing to do, but in hindsight I know what I did. I was
> grinding 1st and reverse, so I shut it off and popped it into reverse.
> Then I hit the key quickly, wanting to see if clutch was really engaged,
> or just dragging enough to spin the shaft. Parking brake was on and
> unfortunately holding much better than the average rabbit. I only hit the
> key quick, but it make quite a huge thud, really kicked the engine against
> the mounts. It told me the clutch definitely was engaged. This was the
> last time it got any grip. The question now is, what's the "weakest link"
> (that's WWWWWWWWWWEEkest link), because something obviously let go. Is it
> possible I wiped the splines off the tranny shaft, at the clutch disc or
> even something further in? Or would one assume (dangerous word, unless
> assuming the worst) the teeth in the clutch disc would sheer off 1st?
> It's such a backwards setup, and I've never actually had one apart. Pedal
> feels fine, and there is only slight change in sound when letting clutch
> out. Past experiences and general guessing can be fun here, but I don't
> think I'll know without taking it apart and I'm just not in the position
> to do that.
>
> Maybe I can just unbolt the tranny and slide it over for a peak. And if
> it's the disc, just slip it down out, slide another one in and clamp it
> up. All fixed within the hour! : ) Maybe have to adjust the lu-lu valve
> just enough to keep it from overriding the trestle gear and making the
> discabubulator go thunk. Drain and refill the blinker fluid. Rotate the
> headlights and do a dipstick alignment. OK, all joking aside... I got an
> old bumper jack around here somewhere... if I can just jack the front
> bumper up enough to unbolt and change the car...
>
>>
>> bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car?
> I'm not desperate to, but it would be nice to be able to. I bought it
> cheap as a "no spark" car. It's not rusted, but does have some damage to
> the hood. Grille's broken, but I happen to have a new one that will fit
> it. Roof is excellent, interior is fair. Fixing a "no spark" car sounded
> right up my ally. Well, my "no spark" car still didn't run after fixing
> spark(except by towing it, and clutch worked great for starting it btw)
> and has since gone into new starter, new radiator, used radiator fan, new
> coolant flange, new injector seals, and it still will need at least a pair
> of tires and a rod end, and now it needs a clutch? SWEEEEET. I learned a
> long time ago that doing a buy/fix/sell for profit is futile so never
> attempt to do that. But ideally, buy/fix/drive a little/and sell for
> break even justifies the endeavor. There comes a certain satisfaction in
> auto resurrection and I always know someone that ends up needing a cheap
> drivable car. It's always nice when it's a win win deal and we can beat
> the system we live under. If I can sell it for 600 like it sits, I'm
> still taking a loss. I don't think it would even sell for that much.
> I'll put it on CL and see though... maybe I'll get LUCKY! Hey, it's
> even Friday the 13th today... that should help... knock on my head...

quotes and comments below...

> I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it
> at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
> I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!

It's easier than getting in and out of the car 20 time (LOL), but I always
fine tune final amount of freeplay at pedal based on actual release point.
If it's too high or too low, it makes it drive awkward. I always have to
have it exactly measure out as "just feels right"!

> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to
> drop the transmission out of the vehicle.

Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )

> Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
> broken and are still attached!

Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard flange...
but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I can shift
3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much resistance. But
there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in eliminates), and if I
slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow down, until it drops
into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in idle speed. I'm picturing
the shaft turning inside the gears and holding pressure on the syncros
putting a sideways load on it adding to the otherwise only slightest
friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I supposed I better get my
head under there and look at the drive flanges, but I'm quite certain it's
not spinning diff. I've been looking at exploded view in Bentley (84 4
speeds) but it's really not that clear how it all works and what would let
go the easiest... I'd say at most, the only thing turning besides the
flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate (clutch pedal feels perfect still)
and maybe trans main shaft only?

As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to
have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done.
It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If I
had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart just
to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more than just
a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a bit of stuff
has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it. Then, I could
see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc (still on the
engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if I can jack it up
out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot tall...! HA! If I
ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure to let you know what it
was.

quotes and comments below...

"In2hoppn" > wrote in message
news:So2dnaWuduSsM2PXnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@metrocastcab levision.com...
> quotes and comments below...
>
>> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
>> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you
>> to drop the transmission out of the vehicle.
>
> Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )

Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy
clutch change.

>
>> Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
>> broken and are still attached!
>
> Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard
> flange... but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I
> can shift 3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much
> resistance. But there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in
> eliminates), and if I slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow
> down, until it drops into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in
> idle speed. I'm picturing the shaft turning inside the gears and holding
> pressure on the syncros putting a sideways load on it adding to the
> otherwise only slightest friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I
> supposed I better get my head under there and look at the drive flanges,
> but I'm quite certain it's not spinning diff. I've been looking at
> exploded view in Bentley (84 4 speeds) but it's really not that clear how
> it all works and what would let go the easiest... I'd say at most, the
> only thing turning besides the flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate
> (clutch pedal feels perfect still) and maybe trans main shaft only?

Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol
If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly
engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans mainshaft
is not turning.
You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that
inspection hole at the top of the transmission.

>
> As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to
> have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done.
> It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If
> I had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart
> just to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more
> than just a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a
> bit of stuff has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it.
> Then, I could see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc
> (still on the engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if
> I can jack it up out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot
> tall...! HA! If I ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure
> to let you know what it was.

Well good luck with the sale. At least you have the engine running properly
which should help the sale of the car for the max price! ;-)

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:19:36 -0600, "dave AKA vwdoc1"
> wrote:

>quotes and comments below...
>
>"In2hoppn" > wrote in message
>news:So2dnaWuduSsM2PXnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@metrocastca blevision.com...
>> quotes and comments below...
>>
>>> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
>>> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you
>>> to drop the transmission out of the vehicle.
>>
>> Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )
>
>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy
>clutch change.
>
>>

True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
alternator which is tight against the firewall...


(For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )

> Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol

Yeah, I WISH it could all be turning that easily / quietly... and I will be
looking to make sure when the rain stops...

> If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly
> engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans
> mainshaft is not turning.

Are you saying there is no way it's a problem inside the transmission??

> You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that
> inspection hole at the top of the transmission.

All I could see there is the flywheel spinning, which occupies the whole
hole (hole whole? a-hole? nevermind). I can see that the whole thing (the
whole thing that occupies the whole hole?) is turning... but... how much
space is between that and the trans housing?? I do have a bore scope!
Maybe I can give it a rectal exam (back to first set of parenthesis)...

>>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and
>>easy
>>clutch change.
>
> True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
> alternator which is tight against the firewall...

Yeah, but the starter is an easy top side job! Well except the hood opens
in the wrong direction...

> (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
> vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
> the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )

Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered,
"why does my Saab have red oil?"!
SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right...
CIS... : )

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:12:37 -0500, "In2hoppn" >
wrote:

>
>
>>>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and
>>>easy
>>>clutch change.
>>
>> True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
>> alternator which is tight against the firewall...
>
>Yeah, but the starter is an easy top side job! Well except the hood opens
>in the wrong direction...
>
>> (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
>> vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
>> the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )
>
>Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered,
>"why does my Saab have red oil?"!

Then they go to add oil, "Uh, where's the oil filler on this thing?"
<bg>



>SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right...
>CIS... : )

Ah, naw, my Saab is parked right next to my VW Cabbie! Two
convertibles in a row in the garage...

OK, car parked out back. Out of sight, but not out of mind ; ).
I went out with the bore scope. Couldn't see much other than flywheel with
that.

This things been bugging me. I've owned cars in the past that had almost no
clutch left, clutches that grabbed terrible, chattering clutches, and while
generally not stupid with a vehicle, have really "beaten the hell" out of a
number of them... and never blown a clutch. Of all the vehicle repair I've
done for customers as well as myself, friends, and family... I've only done
2 clutch jobs I can think of, and both of those vehicles would still drive
(barely). So, I get to thinking again... how could I kill the clutch by
just hitting the starter in reverse? Or, if doing that could really break
something in the transmission it would have end up being a reverse only
problem. And here I was actually adjusting the clutch when it turned to
crap, so it must have been something to do with me somehow over adjusting
it. So I unhooked the cable at the transmission end and "POP". the lever
dropped down and clutch engaged!

So, I will insert a quote here that I now whole (hole?) heartedly agree
with:

>I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it
>at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
>I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!

Apparently, my whole problem to start with after getting the clutch pedal
pushed back onto the pivot pin and getting a snap ring on it was this. The
part that holds the cable housing at the pedal end had been broken. When I
took the cable out, there was a broken pipe-like piece, and an extra washer
someone had added in there in the past. Some how this hap-hazard repair
re-orientated itself into dicking with me for hours (ok, technically days
now!). Soooooooooo... HORRAY! It's fixed now! Well, not really fixed...
just working again for now! And when I start it, it idles. Radiator fan
cycles as it should. I think the temp sensor for the ecm (cold engine/80%
duty cycle) opens a bit early. But O2 sensor may also need to be replaced,
or at least run. I'm pretty sure I can advance the timing more (currently @
6 btdc via timing light). But she's very much yard drivable and there is as
of yet still no snow!

Seems I remember seeing years ago, a good write-up on the clutch / firewall
repair... I'll search. If anyone's got a recommended link or quick/easy
method...

And more for CIS! (back on topic!) My 79 has the NON-Lambda CIS. It works
perfectly. Hit the key in any weather, even after sitting for 1/2 a year,
and it instantly fires up and idles. And it will sit there and idle
smoothly until warmed up. Cold, semi cold, warm, and hot restarts are never
even the slightest issue. The idle speed may vary slightly, but this has no
idle speed contol at all. Not even the digital ones they used on later
ones. Nothing but the mechanical bypass one down behind the intake. I've
never seen ANY cis system work as nicely as this, and have always wondered
if the CIS Lambda can be un-lambda-ed?? While the Lambda systems were very
much piggybacked on later (from an electrical point of view), the fuel
distributor itself I believe is different. I imagine in order to do away
with the frequency valve would require some sort of restriction in it's
place to simulate about a 50% duty cycle? I've seen some that were just
unplugged and the mixture screw turned in further to compensate. And this
can easily be done and it not that much different of a setting. Certainly
not enough to cause it to inject fuel with engine not running! But I always
imagined that the part throttle mixture would be effected by doing this.
Any thoughts? Obviously, it's better to keep the frequency valve, even if
it's just kept @ 50% duty cycle. But if for some reason I ever had to
replace a non-lambda fuel distributor (hopefully never for my 79), I doubt
I'd find anything other than a Lambda one and of course the car doesn't have
any of the electrics for running a frequency valve.

Now, time to search out cable/firewall repair AND pull that CL post (or at
least correct it and up the price a couple hundred)!

lol
OK glad you found the problem! ;-)


"In2hoppn" > wrote in message
news:ZNKdnVZdTr_QrZzWnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@metrocastcab levision.com...
>
>
> OK, car parked out back. Out of sight, but not out of mind ; ).
> I went out with the bore scope. Couldn't see much other than flywheel
> with that.
>
> This things been bugging me. I've owned cars in the past that had almost
> no clutch left, clutches that grabbed terrible, chattering clutches, and
> while generally not stupid with a vehicle, have really "beaten the hell"
> out of a number of them... and never blown a clutch. Of all the vehicle
> repair I've done for customers as well as myself, friends, and family...
> I've only done 2 clutch jobs I can think of, and both of those vehicles
> would still drive (barely). So, I get to thinking again... how could I
> kill the clutch by just hitting the starter in reverse? Or, if doing that
> could really break something in the transmission it would have end up
> being a reverse only problem. And here I was actually adjusting the
> clutch when it turned to crap, so it must have been something to do with
> me somehow over adjusting it. So I unhooked the cable at the transmission
> end and "POP". the lever dropped down and clutch engaged!
>
> So, I will insert a quote here that I now whole (hole?) heartedly agree
> with:
>
>>I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it
>>at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
>>I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!
>
> Apparently, my whole problem to start with after getting the clutch pedal
> pushed back onto the pivot pin and getting a snap ring on it was this.
> The part that holds the cable housing at the pedal end had been broken.
> When I took the cable out, there was a broken pipe-like piece, and an
> extra washer someone had added in there in the past. Some how this
> hap-hazard repair re-orientated itself into dicking with me for hours (ok,
> technically days now!). Soooooooooo... HORRAY! It's fixed now! Well,
> not really fixed... just working again for now! And when I start it, it
> idles. Radiator fan cycles as it should. I think the temp sensor for the
> ecm (cold engine/80% duty cycle) opens a bit early. But O2 sensor may
> also need to be replaced, or at least run. I'm pretty sure I can advance
> the timing more (currently @ 6 btdc via timing light). But she's very
> much yard drivable and there is as of yet still no snow!
>
> Seems I remember seeing years ago, a good write-up on the clutch /
> firewall repair... I'll search. If anyone's got a recommended link or
> quick/easy method...
>
> And more for CIS! (back on topic!) My 79 has the NON-Lambda CIS. It
> works perfectly. Hit the key in any weather, even after sitting for 1/2 a
> year, and it instantly fires up and idles. And it will sit there and idle
> smoothly until warmed up. Cold, semi cold, warm, and hot restarts are
> never even the slightest issue. The idle speed may vary slightly, but
> this has no idle speed contol at all. Not even the digital ones they used
> on later ones. Nothing but the mechanical bypass one down behind the
> intake. I've never seen ANY cis system work as nicely as this, and have
> always wondered if the CIS Lambda can be un-lambda-ed?? While the Lambda
> systems were very much piggybacked on later (from an electrical point of
> view), the fuel distributor itself I believe is different. I imagine in
> order to do away with the frequency valve would require some sort of
> restriction in it's place to simulate about a 50% duty cycle? I've seen
> some that were just unplugged and the mixture screw turned in further to
> compensate. And this can easily be done and it not that much different of
> a setting. Certainly not enough to cause it to inject fuel with engine
> not running! But I always imagined that the part throttle mixture would
> be effected by doing this. Any thoughts? Obviously, it's better to keep
> the frequency valve, even if it's just kept @ 50% duty cycle. But if for
> some reason I ever had to replace a non-lambda fuel distributor (hopefully
> never for my 79), I doubt I'd find anything other than a Lambda one and of
> course the car doesn't have any of the electrics for running a frequency
> valve.
>
> Now, time to search out cable/firewall repair AND pull that CL post (or at
> least correct it and up the price a couple hundred)!
>
>