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#1
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Detroit Vs Japan
Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made by Detroit. My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat. When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent. We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground. Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue either. Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality |
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#2
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Brian Foster wrote:
> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how > Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck > market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had > hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as > much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now > Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable > vehicles made by Detroit. Hmmm... Last I heard, the Titan had something like 3-4% of the big truck market. I don't exactly call that "big inroads". Honda isn't even on the map. Their Ridgeline has been less than successful so far. > My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat. > When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes > surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent. Because the Japanese companese do 2 things differently: 1.) They are very engineering-central, and are proud of it. 2.) They don't reinvent the wheel with each new redesign. They simply keep what works, and fix what doesn't. There's no need to change the design of a fuel pump, for instance, when it's been a trouble free design and works quite well. The American brands tend to reengineer everything with massive overhauls of their vehicles. Though I agree with the Japan reference, in general, I disagree with the European reference. Anyone can build an awefully nice car for $60K. Doing it at $30K is a whole different story. European cars with that level of refinement are very expensive. Witness the BMW 3 series. For more than $40K, you get a car the size of a Ford Focus with a bit more power and a bit more 'refinement'. Yes, it handles better, but it's still a very small car. To beat it all, in a television comparison, the Focus was judged to be built better and had better reliability than cars from Germany. Now, a nice Focus can be had for less than half what a BMW 3 series costs. I don't see this as anything earth shattering from a consumer standpoint. I see it as an overpriced vehicle. Now, witness that American cars have long been on the JD Power initial quality rankings, and certain models have been on the most reliable list from Consumer Reports. The Chevy Lumina was one of the most reliable cars on the road. Somehow, though, public perception aways makes people believe that a Japanese brand is more reliable. Toyota just announced a recall of over 790,000 cars. If that was GM, the public would point to it and say it was more evidence that American cars are junk. But it's almost not even a story being Toyota. The latest JD Power Inital Quality study has Buick and Cadillac in 4th and 5th positions, respectively, Toyota in 7th, Hummer in 10th, Honda in 12th, followed by GMC, Lincoln, and Acura. There goes the foreign makers are better idea... At the bottom of the list were Suzuki, Mazda, Land Rover, Volkswagen, Porsche, Volvo, then Kia - the formermost being at the very bottom. Actually, from 3rd place back, each position is barely better than the former. So, there's not a huge gap in quality between most brands. See for yourself: http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/iqs2005069.asp > We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU > truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and > refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground. Really? I think this is more perception, and less reality. Ford has done a good job developing a live rear axle setup that does away with some of the nasty natural effects of such a setup when bumps are encountered. Older designs would cause the axle to cause the rear end to sidestep when encountering a bump in mid-corner. Supposedly, the new Mustang has no such habits because of improved design. GM practially invented hydroforming for frame rails and such, drastically improving the strength of such components. GM vehicles typically have much better gas mileage compared to similar vehicle offerings with similar horsepower ratings. Witness the Corvette and the last generation Camaro/Firbird. The Corvette produces 400 hp, while getting 26 mpg on the highway. This is unheard of in sports cars. It gets better gas mileage than just about any sports car with anywhere near that kind of power. Not Porsche, Ferrari, Acura, Lamborghini, or Dodge can claim that kind of gas mileage. Similar results are spread out through the entire GM line. This was pointed out on Autoline Detroit by the host, and he said that unfortunately for GM, the word simply hasn't reached the customers. It's a marketing problem. > Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to > change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue > either. The UAW has nothing to do with it. This is a management problem. GM is simply the size of a company that should have 30%+ marketshare, when they have something like 23%. The market is very heavy with competition, and it's getting worse. When companies like Kia/Hyundai are making cars in Korea and paying people a pittance to build them, it's a little hard to compete. This isn't the fault of UAW workers. This is simply a tragedy that people are willing to buy products produced by companies that pay "sweat shop" wages. The same goes for people who shop at Walmart. 80% of all items sold at Walmart are produced in 3rd world countries in sweat shop conditions. This is simply a crime. We accept the fact because we don't have to witness it and it makes our products cheap. If they worked like that in this country, the government would shut them down. This country has gotten itself in a rat race, where everyone thinks they deserve to live like a billionaire, but the next guy gets paid too much for what he does. If you work for a living, you deserve to be paid enough to make a living. I think current UAW pay is something like $24.50/hr. or something like that. That equates to about $50K a year on a 40 hr work week. That's not exactly living high on the hog. Sure, for a blue collar job, it's pretty decent and there are a lot of people making less. But it's far less than many make, too, that do a lot less work for it. People in the construction fields make even more. I think union boilermakers are something like $35/hr. here locally in the Cincinnati area. It's interesting that workers in European plants, according to Autoline Detroit, have benefit and protection plans that the UAW would die for. Yet, they're not considered unable to compete... > Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very > different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality > True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you get a nice car for less than $20K... -- Registered Linux user #378193 |
#3
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Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics will rein supreme for a long time to come. "Brian Foster" > wrote in message .. . > Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how > Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck > market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had > hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as much > as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is > feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made by > Detroit. > > My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat. > When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes > surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent. > > We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU truck > but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement. > That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground. > > Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to > change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue > either. > > Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very > different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality > > |
#4
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Ditto. Ninety percent of every Ford or GM truck every made is still
one the road. They're south of the border, or out in Cuba, if you're wondering where they're at. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Jeff Strickland wrote: > > Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I > suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but > out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics > will rein supreme for a long time to come. |
#5
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I'm going to have to disagree with y'all ... here in Texas, we
see the caravans headed south all the time. Invariably, it's one Japanese pickup pulling another, both loaded down with applicances and stuff... and when I say 'invariably', that's what I mean. Japanese. Always. And Bill... perhaps you'll tell us how the trucks from the US are getting to Cuba... that one's got me wondering... __ Steve .. "L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in message ... > Ditto. Ninety percent of every Ford or GM truck every made is still > one the road. They're south of the border, or out in Cuba, if you're > wondering where they're at. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > http://www.billhughes.com/ > > Jeff Strickland wrote: > > > > Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I > > suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but > > out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics > > will rein supreme for a long time to come. |
#6
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The same Lee Harvey Oswald got there, via Mexico.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Stephen Cowell wrote: > > I'm going to have to disagree with y'all ... here in Texas, we > see the caravans headed south all the time. Invariably, it's > one Japanese pickup pulling another, both loaded down > with applicances and stuff... and when I say 'invariably', > that's what I mean. Japanese. Always. > > And Bill... perhaps you'll tell us how the trucks from the > US are getting to Cuba... that one's got me wondering... > __ > Steve |
#7
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I think you should move to Japan.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Stephen Cowell wrote: > > I'm going to have to disagree with y'all ... here in Texas, we > see the caravans headed south all the time. Invariably, it's > one Japanese pickup pulling another, both loaded down > with applicances and stuff... and when I say 'invariably', > that's what I mean. Japanese. Always. > > And Bill... perhaps you'll tell us how the trucks from the > US are getting to Cuba... that one's got me wondering... > __ > Steve |
#8
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He swam, but the trucks have to go in by boat.
"L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in message ... > The same Lee Harvey Oswald got there, via Mexico. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > http://www.billhughes.com/ > > Stephen Cowell wrote: > > > > I'm going to have to disagree with y'all ... here in Texas, we > > see the caravans headed south all the time. Invariably, it's > > one Japanese pickup pulling another, both loaded down > > with applicances and stuff... and when I say 'invariably', > > that's what I mean. Japanese. Always. > > > > And Bill... perhaps you'll tell us how the trucks from the > > US are getting to Cuba... that one's got me wondering... > > __ > > Steve |
#9
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Maybe, a better place for you to go would be Cuba, and count their
Japanese cars: http://www.danheller.com/cuba-cars.html God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Stephen Cowell wrote: > > I'm going to have to disagree with y'all ... here in Texas, we > see the caravans headed south all the time. Invariably, it's > one Japanese pickup pulling another, both loaded down > with applicances and stuff... and when I say 'invariably', > that's what I mean. Japanese. Always. > > And Bill... perhaps you'll tell us how the trucks from the > US are getting to Cuba... that one's got me wondering... > __ > Steve |
#10
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While this may have been the norm in the past, it is rapidly becoming
obsolete thinking. Yes, wages are much less overseas (in Asia especially) but costs of living are also much lower as well; the wage/cost of living gap in these regions are wider than the West, but the gap is rapidly closing. "Sweat shop" factories really aren't as prevalent as most of us in the West think; in the case of automotive manufacturers, most of these Asian plants are as state-of-the-art as any in the West and are staffed by workers who want those jobs because they pay better than anything else around. In a nutshell, the world business climate is changing, and the next three to five generations of Americans are going to be left behind if they aren't prepared for it. Reading suggestion: "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruel Smith" > > True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods > because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a > mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement > plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you > get a nice car for less than $20K... > > > -- > > Registered Linux user #378193 |
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