Hard start

Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
another problem has occurred.

Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally one
cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the pickup
to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly kick
in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts when
motor is off.

In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
gauge.
88VW Fox CIS-E.
--
Dave
..

12 volts is on its way to dead. Well might as call it dead.
http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

Is the starter moter turning over at the correct speed? It cannot with
just 12 volts.

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:19:47 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:

>Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
>another problem has occurred.
>
>Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally one
>cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
>normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
>Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
>minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the pickup
>to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
>minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly kick
>in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
>Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts when
>motor is off.
>
>In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
>did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
>15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
>gauge.
>88VW Fox CIS-E.

Possibly a flooded engine due to a cold start valve working but the battery
too low to crank engine fast enough to start engine.

Like Jim said...........maybe a bad battery.
I like Delco batteries, but those WalMart batteries seem to be good too!
Stay away from those leaking Sears and Interstate batteries. They will
crank well but just leak acid out destroying nearby wiring and metal. :-(

JMHO
--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

"Jim Behning" > wrote in message
...
> 12 volts is on its way to dead. Well might as call it dead.
> http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
>
> Is the starter moter turning over at the correct speed? It cannot with
> just 12 volts.
>
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:19:47 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>
>>Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
>>another problem has occurred.
>>
>>Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>>Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
>>one
>>cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
>>normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
>>Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
>>minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the
>>pickup
>>to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
>>minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly
>>kick
>>in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
>>Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts
>>when
>>motor is off.
>>
>>In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>>convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>>beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
>>did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
>>15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
>>gauge.
>>88VW Fox CIS-E.

Have to find the AutoZone receipt for the current battery. The previous
battery was same one from AutoZone, lasted almost 6 years.

Also should mention that one of the 2 hot wires that has each its own
connection to the battery via a separate bolt to the battery terminal, had
its insulation non-existent for about 2", wire there was frayed and some
missing. I shortened same cable cutting off missing insulation area,
replace the plastic press connector with an all-copper version.

I remember replacing the battery shortly after I got this car in 92. Got it
from a local parts store. While traversing a rough residential road, had an
electrical fire under the hood. Hood damaged above the battery. Battery
was too tall for the compartment.
--
Dave

"dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
t...
> Possibly a flooded engine due to a cold start valve working but the
> battery too low to crank engine fast enough to start engine.
>
> Like Jim said...........maybe a bad battery.
> I like Delco batteries, but those WalMart batteries seem to be good too!
> Stay away from those leaking Sears and Interstate batteries. They will
> crank well but just leak acid out destroying nearby wiring and metal. :-(
>
> JMHO
> --
> later,
> dave
> (One out of many daves)
>
> "Jim Behning" > wrote in
> message ...
>> 12 volts is on its way to dead. Well might as call it dead.
>> http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
>>
>> Is the starter moter turning over at the correct speed? It cannot with
>> just 12 volts.
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:19:47 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>>
>>>Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor.
>>>Now,
>>>another problem has occurred.
>>>
>>>Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>>>Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
>>>one
>>>cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All
>>>seemed
>>>normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump
>>>start.
>>>Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
>>>minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the
>>>pickup
>>>to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
>>>minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly
>>>kick
>>>in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
>>>Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts
>>>when
>>>motor is off.
>>>
>>>In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>>>convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>>>beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on,
>>>never
>>>did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for
>>>about
>>>15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
>>>gauge.
>>>88VW Fox CIS-E.
>
>

Although my multimeter is not calibrated, if reasonably accurate, believe
you're correct. Had to jumper the battery, as it would barely turn over
engine.

Ordinary wheel bearing grease works fine as a battery cable topping.

After storing this vehicle up to a year at time numerous times while
overseas (negative cable disconnected), engine turned over fine after
returning home.

--
Dave

"Jim Behning" > wrote in message
...
> 12 volts is on its way to dead. Well might as call it dead.
> http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
>
> Is the starter moter turning over at the correct speed? It cannot with
> just 12 volts.
>
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:19:47 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>
>>Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
>>another problem has occurred.
>>
>>Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>>Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
>>one
>>cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
>>normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
>>Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
>>minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the
>>pickup
>>to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
>>minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly
>>kick
>>in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
>>Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts
>>when
>>motor is off.
>>
>>In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>>convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>>beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
>>did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
>>15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
>>gauge.
>>88VW Fox CIS-E.

On Feb 4, 8:19*pm, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> Confusing problem here. *See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. *Now,
> another problem has occurred.
>
> Car has become more and more hard to start. *Finally, refused to start.
> Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. *Jump start finally one
> cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). *All seemed
> normal. *In the morning, wouldn't start. *1 day later, tried a jump start.
> Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. *Cranked for about 2
> minutes. *3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). *Pulled the pickup
> to the VW, put the jumper cables on. *Let the pickup run for about 10
> minutes. *Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly kick
> in in both occassions. *Started right up, nothing unusual. *Let it run..
> Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. *12 volts when
> motor is off.
>
> In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
> convenience store, was getting past normal temp. *Continued to run a bit
> beyond normal temp. *Drove home, same. *Expected the fan to kick on, never
> did, even after I parked it. *Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
> 15 minutes. *Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
> gauge.
> 88VW Fox CIS-E.
> --
> Dave
> .

Others have stated the obvious-and-likely. I would only add the
following two wrinkles:

a) A VOM does not load the source such that you are getting any
indication of "current" at that 14V. You may have a bad alternator
that is putting out the 'correct' voltage but not enough current to
put a charge on the battery. If you have an external charger with a
gauge, you can check this and also see if the battery holds a charge
this way. In any case, do check the charging circuit anyway if you
have to replace the battery.

b) If even a "new" standard starting battery is deep-cycled more than
a very few times, it will be seriously damaged such that it may fail
prematurely. Typical results of such abuse would be one cell going
bad. Each cell is good for a nominal 2.1V so 6 x 2.1 = 12.6. Anything
less indicates (at least) one bad cell.

Just a couple of random thoughts.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

> wrote in message
...
On Feb 4, 8:19 pm, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
> another problem has occurred.
>
> Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
> Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
> one
> cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
> normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
> Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
> minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the pickup
> to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
> minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly
> kick
> in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
> Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts when
> motor is off.
>
> In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
> convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
> beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
> did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
> 15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
> gauge.
> 88VW Fox CIS-E.
> --
> Dave
> .

Others have stated the obvious-and-likely. I would only add the
following two wrinkles:

a) A VOM does not load the source such that you are getting any
indication of "current" at that 14V. You may have a bad alternator
that is putting out the 'correct' voltage but not enough current to
put a charge on the battery. If you have an external charger with a
gauge, you can check this and also see if the battery holds a charge
this way. In any case, do check the charging circuit anyway if you
have to replace the battery.

b) If even a "new" standard starting battery is deep-cycled more than
a very few times, it will be seriously damaged such that it may fail
prematurely. Typical results of such abuse would be one cell going
bad. Each cell is good for a nominal 2.1V so 6 x 2.1 = 12.6. Anything
less indicates (at least) one bad cell.

Just a couple of random thoughts.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

--------------------------

Being real cautious about what to replace. The VW started fine this
morning. Drove to both jobs today. Last one, drove home with headlights
running. I did smell a bit of gasoline after the last start before going
home. Was a bit cool this evening. So, there's something else going on
regarding air temp and gasoline. Its supposed to be in mid-30s in the a.m.
tomorrow. See if it acts up again.
Dave

In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, Dioclese wrote:

> Let it run.
>Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts when
>motor is off.

If you are going to draw inferences from these voltages, you need
finer voltage measurements. 12.5 after the car is off for a while
does not indicate a problem battery. If you are not measuring to a
decimal place, then that might read 12 or 13.

If you measure while cranking, the voltage could be considerably
less without causing a problem. I am not sure where I would draw the
line. If you measure while cranking, 6 volts would be bad and 10
volts would be sufficient.

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Feb 4, 8:19 pm, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>> Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor. Now,
>> another problem has occurred.
>>
>> Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>> Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
>> one
>> cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All seemed
>> normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a jump start.
>> Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked for about 2
>> minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas). Pulled the pickup
>> to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup run for about 10
>> minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the fuel pump briefly
>> kick
>> in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing unusual. Let it run.
>> Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with multimeter. 12 volts
>> when
>> motor is off.
>>
>> In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>> convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>> beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on, never
>> did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle for about
>> 15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing the temp
>> gauge.
>> 88VW Fox CIS-E.
>> --
>> Dave
>> .
>
> Others have stated the obvious-and-likely. I would only add the
> following two wrinkles:
>
> a) A VOM does not load the source such that you are getting any
> indication of "current" at that 14V. You may have a bad alternator
> that is putting out the 'correct' voltage but not enough current to
> put a charge on the battery. If you have an external charger with a
> gauge, you can check this and also see if the battery holds a charge
> this way. In any case, do check the charging circuit anyway if you
> have to replace the battery.
>
> b) If even a "new" standard starting battery is deep-cycled more than
> a very few times, it will be seriously damaged such that it may fail
> prematurely. Typical results of such abuse would be one cell going
> bad. Each cell is good for a nominal 2.1V so 6 x 2.1 = 12.6. Anything
> less indicates (at least) one bad cell.
>
> Just a couple of random thoughts.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Wyncote, PA
>
> --------------------------
>
> Being real cautious about what to replace. The VW started fine this
> morning. Drove to both jobs today. Last one, drove home with headlights
> running. I did smell a bit of gasoline after the last start before going
> home. Was a bit cool this evening. So, there's something else going on
> regarding air temp and gasoline. Its supposed to be in mid-30s in the
> a.m. tomorrow. See if it acts up again.
> Dave
>

Started fine yesterday morning (next morning from above post). Low 30s air
temp. My gut says that using jumper cables from my pickup for 10 minutes
prior to attempting to start the VW is in play for now. Gave the battery
some deep charge.

Brief gasoline smell remains at start time. No visible leaks anywhere.
Dave

The coolant temp sensor was replaced. Cured a rough runnning engine that
belched black smoke and ran very roughly at initial start.

Thermo-time switch seems to be doing its job normally. This is connected to
the opposite side of the coolant port where the coolant temp sensor is
mounted. There is no resistance check on it, unlike the coolant temp
sensor.

I've been referring to the Bentley manual for all checks.

The coil and plugs were replaced early on when the VW was running rich at
start time, prior to changing the coolant temp sensor. The oxygen sensor
was replaced as well. This is a CIS-E engine, not a Digifant I or II
engine.

--
Dave
"Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
...
> That should be about 12.5 V with the engine off.
>
> The fuel smell is a possible indication of flooding.
>
> I would suspect any and all temperature sensors. Do you have a repair
> manual? I suggest getting one and check out the temperature sensors.
>
> You also may want to buy a spare spark plug and next time it fails to
> start pull on plug wire put new plug in and hold the threads tightly
> against the engine block. Did you get a nice bright blue spark? If not
> you may have a spark problem. Did you feel a very strong ZAP and end up
> on the ground?. If so you failed to hold that plug with something very
> well insulated.
>
> --
> Joseph Meehan
>
> Dia 's Muire duit
>
>
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
> ...
>> Confusing problem here. See prior post on replacing coolant sensor.
>> Now, another problem has occurred.
>>
>> Car has become more and more hard to start. Finally, refused to start.
>> Smelled gasoline under hood during those occassions. Jump start finally
>> one cold night, battery seemed drained (1 year on 5 year battery). All
>> seemed normal. In the morning, wouldn't start. 1 day later, tried a
>> jump start. Turned over fine, no startup or indication it would. Cranked
>> for about 2 minutes. 3 days later, its gotten warm here (S. Texas).
>> Pulled the pickup to the VW, put the jumper cables on. Let the pickup
>> run for about 10 minutes. Turned the key a couple of times, heard the
>> fuel pump briefly kick in in both occassions. Started right up, nothing
>> unusual. Let it run. Checked the battery while running, 14 volts with
>> multimeter. 12 volts when motor is off.
>>
>> In first occasion of jump start above, drove the VW about 5 miles to a
>> convenience store, was getting past normal temp. Continued to run a bit
>> beyond normal temp. Drove home, same. Expected the fan to kick on,
>> never did, even after I parked it. Last jump start above, ran at idle
>> for about 15 minutes. Fan kicked on when it was supposed to referencing
>> the temp gauge.
>> 88VW Fox CIS-E.
>> --
>> Dave
>> .
>>