How do you test ignition leads?

If you truly had the head shaved that much you could get an adjustable
camshaft gear. The way I test wires is fairly simple. First test on a
humid night or spray water from a spray bottle looking for leaks.
Test two: Attach a timing light close to the spark plug to see if
juice is getting that far.
Test three: Stick a 1/4" in each spark plug wire and hold a half inch
from the block. Start car and see if the spark jumps the gap.

You waste a lot of time trying to get the car to run right if the
camshaft is retarded too much. I know when I changed timing belts on
the 1984 and older VWs I could get a decent idle but as soon as I
drove around the block I knew the cam timing was off. I had some
welding done on my Toyota truck head. I had the head shaved after the
welding, guides knurled or replaced as needed and new stem seals.
Truck runs fine even with the cam slightly retarded. I would imagine
on the VW that a shaved head is going to be a lot less camshaft timing
error than being one tooth off.

I am not sure what bad wires sound like. I have maintained my cars for
the last 31 years. I don't know that I ever had any wires get that bad
that I might hear anything besides an occasional skip (misfire). But I
don't drive much. I might have a million miles on the various cars I
have owned. OK, the math does not work out well. I guess closer to
900,000 miles.

You personally ground the valves? You did not have the valve guides
and seals replaced?

So you are stating that you have used a timing light to check the
timing on the flywheel? Anything less is just guessing. While you have
the timing light out you can check those wires for rudimentary
function.

What are the readings when you do a compression test and a leakdown
test?

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:30 GMT, "ukdodger via CarKB.com"
<u20620@uwe> wrote:

>Hello Jim. By the sound.
>
>To cut a long story short after the engine overheated (I ran without water
>for a mile or so without knowing) I decided to have the head skimmed and at
>the same time I ground in the valves. After putting it all back together it
>ran 'lumpy'. I mean really just about firing and threatening to stall all the
>time. It was so bad the car shook. After much poking and hoping I noticed the
>engine timing marks on the pully and intermediate camshaft gear would not
>line up. This was because reducing the thickness of the head (the head was
>not reduced beyond the limits specified in the manual) it effectively
>shortened the distance between the main camshaft gear and intermediate
>camshaft gear and since they are connected by a toothed belt lining the marks
>up was not possible. Craig then pointed out that to make up for the marks not
>lining up the ignition timing could be adjusted. So I retarded the ignition
>while the engine was running and behold the shaking stopped. But it still
>doesnt run 100% smooth, or as it ran before, The engine sound is exactly the
>same as with a misfiring plug. It runs smoothly uneven if you know what I
>mean. The engine responds to the throttle immediately, as it should, but so
>does the uneveness. Apart from more poking and hoping I dont know what else
>to do. Thanks for your interest.
>
>
>Roger
>
>Jim Behning wrote:
>>I have lost track of the thread. How do you know one cylinder is not
>>working as hard as the others?
>>
>>>Thanks Dave but I dont have hydraulic lifters by which I assume you mean
>>>valve lifters. I have an overhead cam that operates the valves directly via
>>[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>>>>>voltages. Some others may have some suggestions for doing a test
>>>>>>that is less dangerous than the one I might do with my own car.

I have not seen it on 4 cylinder engines but on V8s I have seen people
cross spark plug wires. Instant 50 horsepower when the wires are
correctly installed.

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:30 GMT, "ukdodger via CarKB.com"
<u20620@uwe> wrote:

>Hello Jim. By the sound.
>
>To cut a long story short after the engine overheated (I ran without water
>for a mile or so without knowing) I decided to have the head skimmed and at
>the same time I ground in the valves. After putting it all back together it
>ran 'lumpy'. I mean really just about firing and threatening to stall all the
>time. It was so bad the car shook. After much poking and hoping I noticed the
>engine timing marks on the pully and intermediate camshaft gear would not
>line up. This was because reducing the thickness of the head (the head was
>not reduced beyond the limits specified in the manual) it effectively
>shortened the distance between the main camshaft gear and intermediate
>camshaft gear and since they are connected by a toothed belt lining the marks
>up was not possible. Craig then pointed out that to make up for the marks not
>lining up the ignition timing could be adjusted. So I retarded the ignition
>while the engine was running and behold the shaking stopped. But it still
>doesnt run 100% smooth, or as it ran before, The engine sound is exactly the
>same as with a misfiring plug. It runs smoothly uneven if you know what I
>mean. The engine responds to the throttle immediately, as it should, but so
>does the uneveness. Apart from more poking and hoping I dont know what else
>to do. Thanks for your interest.
>
>
>Roger
>
>Jim Behning wrote:
>>I have lost track of the thread. How do you know one cylinder is not
>>working as hard as the others?
>>
>>>Thanks Dave but I dont have hydraulic lifters by which I assume you mean
>>>valve lifters. I have an overhead cam that operates the valves directly via
>>[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>>>>>voltages. Some others may have some suggestions for doing a test
>>>>>>that is less dangerous than the one I might do with my own car.

The camshaft timing is perfectly fine. It was his intermediate shaft marks
that wouldn't line up.

If it truely is an ignition misfire you should be able to pull each spark
plug wire off the engien one at a time. The one that effects the engine the
least when removed is most likely the cylinder with the misfire.

Craig

"Jim Behning" > wrote in message
news
> If you truly had the head shaved that much you could get an adjustable
> camshaft gear. The way I test wires is fairly simple. First test on a
> humid night or spray water from a spray bottle looking for leaks.
> Test two: Attach a timing light close to the spark plug to see if
> juice is getting that far.
> Test three: Stick a 1/4" in each spark plug wire and hold a half inch
> from the block. Start car and see if the spark jumps the gap.
>
> You waste a lot of time trying to get the car to run right if the
> camshaft is retarded too much. I know when I changed timing belts on
> the 1984 and older VWs I could get a decent idle but as soon as I
> drove around the block I knew the cam timing was off. I had some
> welding done on my Toyota truck head. I had the head shaved after the
> welding, guides knurled or replaced as needed and new stem seals.
> Truck runs fine even with the cam slightly retarded. I would imagine
> on the VW that a shaved head is going to be a lot less camshaft timing
> error than being one tooth off.
>
> I am not sure what bad wires sound like. I have maintained my cars for
> the last 31 years. I don't know that I ever had any wires get that bad
> that I might hear anything besides an occasional skip (misfire). But I
> don't drive much. I might have a million miles on the various cars I
> have owned. OK, the math does not work out well. I guess closer to
> 900,000 miles.
>
> You personally ground the valves? You did not have the valve guides
> and seals replaced?
>
> So you are stating that you have used a timing light to check the
> timing on the flywheel? Anything less is just guessing. While you have
> the timing light out you can check those wires for rudimentary
> function.
>
> What are the readings when you do a compression test and a leakdown
> test?
>
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:30 GMT, "ukdodger via CarKB.com"
> <u20620@uwe> wrote:
>
>>Hello Jim. By the sound.
>>
>>To cut a long story short after the engine overheated (I ran without water
>>for a mile or so without knowing) I decided to have the head skimmed and
>>at
>>the same time I ground in the valves. After putting it all back together
>>it
>>ran 'lumpy'. I mean really just about firing and threatening to stall all
>>the
>>time. It was so bad the car shook. After much poking and hoping I noticed
>>the
>>engine timing marks on the pully and intermediate camshaft gear would not
>>line up. This was because reducing the thickness of the head (the head was
>>not reduced beyond the limits specified in the manual) it effectively
>>shortened the distance between the main camshaft gear and intermediate
>>camshaft gear and since they are connected by a toothed belt lining the
>>marks
>>up was not possible. Craig then pointed out that to make up for the marks
>>not
>>lining up the ignition timing could be adjusted. So I retarded the
>>ignition
>>while the engine was running and behold the shaking stopped. But it still
>>doesnt run 100% smooth, or as it ran before, The engine sound is exactly
>>the
>>same as with a misfiring plug. It runs smoothly uneven if you know what I
>>mean. The engine responds to the throttle immediately, as it should, but
>>so
>>does the uneveness. Apart from more poking and hoping I dont know what
>>else
>>to do. Thanks for your interest.
>>
>>
>>Roger
>>
>>Jim Behning wrote:
>>>I have lost track of the thread. How do you know one cylinder is not
>>>working as hard as the others?
>>>
>>>>Thanks Dave but I dont have hydraulic lifters by which I assume you mean
>>>>valve lifters. I have an overhead cam that operates the valves directly
>>>>via
>>>[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>>>>>>voltages. Some others may have some suggestions for doing a test
>>>>>>>that is less dangerous than the one I might do with my own car.

So, we're talking about a distributor cap and ignition wires that are 24
years old?
Just replace them!

"ukdodger via CarKB.com" <u20620@uwe> wrote in message
news:8974fcd068b35@uwe...
> Thanks Craig. Yes you're right and I did wonder if that was good enough.
> All
> it proves is that there is a DC path through the coil but I've never had a
> coil fail before ever. If all else fails I'll change that too. I cant swap
> the HT leads around as there are hard wired into the cap but they are as
> old
> as the car (1985) and may need changing anyway. Just trying to keep costs
> down. I've already spent more than the car is worth! The car overheated
> big
> time a while back. It drained completely of water and I drove on about a
> mile
> like that not knowing. After that I had the head skimmed and reassembled
> the
> engine with the result that it ran 'lumpy' which you know about. That was
> cured by retarding the ignition following your advice. But it still isnt
> 100%
> smooth which I'm pretty sure is electrical by the sound of the engine. The
> rotor arm had gone open circuit between the centre and the tip which was
> probably due to the overheating. It should have had a resistance of
> 1200ohms
> but was open. I've changed the plugs already and it's still the same. Oh
> well
> more money!
>
> Cheers
> Roger
>
> Craig wrote:
>>Some ignition wires have resistance measurments on them but honestly the
>>best way is to replace them. If you only have one suspect you can try
>>swapping it with another wire to see if the problem moves cylinders.
>>
>>Never heard of testing a coil with an ammeter before. There should be
>>resistance measurement for the coil but even that is hit or miss. A coil
>>can
>>pass all the tests but fails when put under load.
>>
>>Craig
>>
>>>I know I'm getting a spark but how do I know it's a good enough one? I do
>>> have a problem with getting my Passat to run smoothly and I have already
>>[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>>
>>> Roger
>
> --
> RD
>
> Message posted via CarKB.com
> http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...ooled/200808/1
>

Hi Jim, Craig and Dave.

Well I did the spark plug test by jumping the spark. All Ok. About a 1/4" as
you said. Then as Dave mentioned I checked the vacumm hoses and discovered
one hanging loose and going nowhere. All it did was operate a switch to
change gear but it meant somewhere was a leak in the vacuum system. After a
lot of swearing trying to find where it went I eventually removed the
carburettor and found the connecter tucked up underneath. Ok so I reconnected
it and started up. No more shaking and no misfires. All appears to be as
before.. but but but..one more problem persists. When I rev the engine up and
take my foot off the throttle the revs dont immediately fall. It's a second
or more late. But when accelerating the response IS immediate. I'm no expert
on carburettors so can you throw some light on what may be wrong. It's
Pierburg 2E2 and has only one adjusting screw which adjusts the tickover
mixture. I adjusted it with the engine hot for maximum revs but it made no
difference to the engine decelleration. I checked the throttle cable and
linkage. Both move freely. Thanks for your help so far guys. I appreciate it.


Roger




Jim Behning wrote:
>If you truly had the head shaved that much you could get an adjustable
>camshaft gear. The way I test wires is fairly simple. First test on a
>humid night or spray water from a spray bottle looking for leaks.
>Test two: Attach a timing light close to the spark plug to see if
>juice is getting that far.
>Test three: Stick a 1/4" in each spark plug wire and hold a half inch
>from the block. Start car and see if the spark jumps the gap.
>
>You waste a lot of time trying to get the car to run right if the
>camshaft is retarded too much. I know when I changed timing belts on
>the 1984 and older VWs I could get a decent idle but as soon as I
>drove around the block I knew the cam timing was off. I had some
>welding done on my Toyota truck head. I had the head shaved after the
>welding, guides knurled or replaced as needed and new stem seals.
>Truck runs fine even with the cam slightly retarded. I would imagine
>on the VW that a shaved head is going to be a lot less camshaft timing
>error than being one tooth off.
>
>I am not sure what bad wires sound like. I have maintained my cars for
>the last 31 years. I don't know that I ever had any wires get that bad
>that I might hear anything besides an occasional skip (misfire). But I
>don't drive much. I might have a million miles on the various cars I
>have owned. OK, the math does not work out well. I guess closer to
>900,000 miles.
>
>You personally ground the valves? You did not have the valve guides
>and seals replaced?
>
>So you are stating that you have used a timing light to check the
>timing on the flywheel? Anything less is just guessing. While you have
>the timing light out you can check those wires for rudimentary
>function.
>
>What are the readings when you do a compression test and a leakdown
>test?
>
>>Hello Jim. By the sound.
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>>>>>>voltages. Some others may have some suggestions for doing a test
>>>>>>>that is less dangerous than the one I might do with my own car.

--
RD

Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...ooled/200809/1

There should be a little diaphram looking thing that the throttle linkage
hits to allow the throttle to close slowly & not stall out the engine. Make
sure its moving freely.


"ukdodger via CarKB.com" <u20620@uwe> wrote in message
news:898cebd90d1e3@uwe...
> Hi Jim, Craig and Dave.
>
> Well I did the spark plug test by jumping the spark. All Ok. About a 1/4"
> as
> you said. Then as Dave mentioned I checked the vacumm hoses and discovered
> one hanging loose and going nowhere. All it did was operate a switch to
> change gear but it meant somewhere was a leak in the vacuum system. After
> a
> lot of swearing trying to find where it went I eventually removed the
> carburettor and found the connecter tucked up underneath. Ok so I
> reconnected
> it and started up. No more shaking and no misfires. All appears to be as
> before.. but but but..one more problem persists. When I rev the engine up
> and
> take my foot off the throttle the revs dont immediately fall. It's a
> second
> or more late. But when accelerating the response IS immediate. I'm no
> expert
> on carburettors so can you throw some light on what may be wrong. It's
> Pierburg 2E2 and has only one adjusting screw which adjusts the tickover
> mixture. I adjusted it with the engine hot for maximum revs but it made no
> difference to the engine decelleration. I checked the throttle cable and
> linkage. Both move freely. Thanks for your help so far guys. I appreciate
> it.
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> Jim Behning wrote:
>>If you truly had the head shaved that much you could get an adjustable
>>camshaft gear. The way I test wires is fairly simple. First test on a
>>humid night or spray water from a spray bottle looking for leaks.
>>Test two: Attach a timing light close to the spark plug to see if
>>juice is getting that far.
>>Test three: Stick a 1/4" in each spark plug wire and hold a half inch
>>from the block. Start car and see if the spark jumps the gap.
>>
>>You waste a lot of time trying to get the car to run right if the
>>camshaft is retarded too much. I know when I changed timing belts on
>>the 1984 and older VWs I could get a decent idle but as soon as I
>>drove around the block I knew the cam timing was off. I had some
>>welding done on my Toyota truck head. I had the head shaved after the
>>welding, guides knurled or replaced as needed and new stem seals.
>>Truck runs fine even with the cam slightly retarded. I would imagine
>>on the VW that a shaved head is going to be a lot less camshaft timing
>>error than being one tooth off.
>>
>>I am not sure what bad wires sound like. I have maintained my cars for
>>the last 31 years. I don't know that I ever had any wires get that bad
>>that I might hear anything besides an occasional skip (misfire). But I
>>don't drive much. I might have a million miles on the various cars I
>>have owned. OK, the math does not work out well. I guess closer to
>>900,000 miles.
>>
>>You personally ground the valves? You did not have the valve guides
>>and seals replaced?
>>
>>So you are stating that you have used a timing light to check the
>>timing on the flywheel? Anything less is just guessing. While you have
>>the timing light out you can check those wires for rudimentary
>>function.
>>
>>What are the readings when you do a compression test and a leakdown
>>test?
>>
>>>Hello Jim. By the sound.
>>>
>>[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>>>>>>>voltages. Some others may have some suggestions for doing a test
>>>>>>>>that is less dangerous than the one I might do with my own car.
>
> --
> RD
>
> Message posted via CarKB.com
> http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...ooled/200809/1
>

In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, ukdodger via CarKB.com wrote:

>
>Well I did the spark plug test by jumping the spark. All Ok. About a 1/4" as
>you said. Then as Dave mentioned I checked the vacumm hoses and discovered
>one hanging loose and going nowhere. All it did was operate a switch to
>change gear but it meant somewhere was a leak in the vacuum system. After a
>lot of swearing trying to find where it went I eventually removed the
>carburettor and found the connecter tucked up underneath. Ok so I reconnected
>it and started up. No more shaking and no misfires.

Cool.

> All appears to be as
>before.. but but but..one more problem persists. When I rev the engine up and
>take my foot off the throttle the revs dont immediately fall. It's a second
>or more late. But when accelerating the response IS immediate. I'm no expert
>on carburettors so can you throw some light on what may be wrong. It's
>Pierburg 2E2 and has only one adjusting screw which adjusts the tickover
>mixture. I adjusted it with the engine hot for maximum revs but it made no
>difference to the engine decelleration. I checked the throttle cable and
>linkage. Both move freely. Thanks for your help so far guys. I appreciate it.

Does that engine have a dashpot? Maybe it is adjusted too high.

Thats the word I was looking for LOL. Dashpot.

Craig

"Tom's VR6" > wrote in message
...
> In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, ukdodger via CarKB.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Well I did the spark plug test by jumping the spark. All Ok. About a 1/4"
>>as
>>you said. Then as Dave mentioned I checked the vacumm hoses and discovered
>>one hanging loose and going nowhere. All it did was operate a switch to
>>change gear but it meant somewhere was a leak in the vacuum system. After
>>a
>>lot of swearing trying to find where it went I eventually removed the
>>carburettor and found the connecter tucked up underneath. Ok so I
>>reconnected
>>it and started up. No more shaking and no misfires.
>
> Cool.
>
>> All appears to be as
>>before.. but but but..one more problem persists. When I rev the engine up
>>and
>>take my foot off the throttle the revs dont immediately fall. It's a
>>second
>>or more late. But when accelerating the response IS immediate. I'm no
>>expert
>>on carburettors so can you throw some light on what may be wrong. It's
>>Pierburg 2E2 and has only one adjusting screw which adjusts the tickover
>>mixture. I adjusted it with the engine hot for maximum revs but it made no
>>difference to the engine decelleration. I checked the throttle cable and
>>linkage. Both move freely. Thanks for your help so far guys. I appreciate
>>it.
>
> Does that engine have a dashpot? Maybe it is adjusted too high.
>

lol
This feels like an Olympic event! ;-)

Glad you are getting the problems solved one at a time. You are gaining a
lot of experience now as you go for the GOLD!

If your carb is not equipped with a dashpot, or other device that slows the
throttle plate returning to rest, then you might have another vacuum leak
along with maybe a rich running carb.
The vacuum leak could be a vacuum reservoir located inside of the fenders in
some cases.
OR it could be at the base of the carb with maybe a defective gasket.
OR maybe a mixture adjustment to lean out the carb a little.

FYI
picture of carb here http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/2E2type.html
maybe #40 is a device that holds the throttle plate from resting momentarily
#10 should be your idle mixture screw.

read here too
http://www.clubgti.com/FORUM/showthread.php?t=36156

--
later,
(One out of many daves)

"ukdodger via CarKB.com" <u20620@uwe> wrote in message
news:898cebd90d1e3@uwe...
> Hi Jim, Craig and Dave.
>
> Well I did the spark plug test by jumping the spark. All Ok. About a 1/4"
> as
> you said. Then as Dave mentioned I checked the vacumm hoses and discovered
> one hanging loose and going nowhere. All it did was operate a switch to
> change gear but it meant somewhere was a leak in the vacuum system. After
> a
> lot of swearing trying to find where it went I eventually removed the
> carburettor and found the connecter tucked up underneath. Ok so I
> reconnected
> it and started up. No more shaking and no misfires. All appears to be as
> before.. but but but..one more problem persists. When I rev the engine up
> and
> take my foot off the throttle the revs dont immediately fall. It's a
> second
> or more late. But when accelerating the response IS immediate. I'm no
> expert
> on carburettors so can you throw some light on what may be wrong. It's
> Pierburg 2E2 and has only one adjusting screw which adjusts the tickover
> mixture. I adjusted it with the engine hot for maximum revs but it made no
> difference to the engine decelleration. I checked the throttle cable and
> linkage. Both move freely. Thanks for your help so far guys. I appreciate
> it.
>
>
> Roger

One challenge is US based VW fans may have never seen the carb you
speak of. I have seen 2 Carter carbs on 83-84 models. Everything else
I have touched has fuel injection. I think 1984 was the last year for
carbs in the US but I could be wrong. But I am just a VW fan, not a
full time mechanic.

Number 40 might be an idle boost? Does a Quadrajet have any more
parts?

Lubricate linkage on carb just to make sure it is not binding. It
looks like there are lots of things to get sticky.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 16:33:48 -0500, "dave AKA vwdoc1"
> wrote:

>lol
>This feels like an Olympic event! ;-)
>
>Glad you are getting the problems solved one at a time. You are gaining a
>lot of experience now as you go for the GOLD!
>
>If your carb is not equipped with a dashpot, or other device that slows the
>throttle plate returning to rest, then you might have another vacuum leak
>along with maybe a rich running carb.
>The vacuum leak could be a vacuum reservoir located inside of the fenders in
>some cases.
>OR it could be at the base of the carb with maybe a defective gasket.
>OR maybe a mixture adjustment to lean out the carb a little.
>
>FYI
>picture of carb here http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/2E2type.html
>maybe #40 is a device that holds the throttle plate from resting momentarily
>#10 should be your idle mixture screw.
>
>read here too
>http://www.clubgti.com/FORUM/showthread.php?t=36156