bad mileage in my rabbit

Hello to everyone,

MY CAR:
83 VW rabbit FI 1.7L Automatic (has 170,000 MI) gas
MY PROBLEM:
I had noticed since I bought my little rabbit that it was
getting very bad gas mileage. I finally actually figured it out and
it is far worse than I thought. It is getting about 13 MPG. This is
for in town driving which is mostly what I use the car for. I bought
this car because it is small and should have pretty good mileage, but
now I feel that I may as well be driving a dump truck around town and
throwing money out the window while I am at it. I took the car to my
local mechanic and he looked at it yet could not find anything wrong.
I had him check the brakes as well as for any gas leaks. However he
did admit that he is not familiar with the fuel injection system and
recommended me to a good VW mechanic in a nearby town. I am plannign
on taking my car there and having them look at it, however I would
like to hear any opinions that you may have or any simular problems so
I am a little more educated.
So my questions for you all are....

-Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
looking at if this is the problem?

-It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??

-Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?

-What kind of mileage should my car be getting if it was working
properly? I am thinking it should be around 20 in town?

-Would there be any difference in MPG if it had a carb. instead of
fuel injection?

Thanks in advance!!
chris

In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled,
wrote:

>
>
>-Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
>should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
>looking at if this is the problem?
>
>-It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
>riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
>a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??

I think your 83 would have continuous injection (CIS). So the
injection would be central and there would not be an injector for
each cylinder.

Check your exhaust. If it smells of gasoline or it has black smoke
or deposits, that could indicate things.

>
>-Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?


Does the car run rough? Suppose you had a bad plug or wire.

One troubleshooting method you could do is to start the car with one
plug wire unplugged in turn. Note the RPM on the tach and roughness.
If you find one that does not impact things as much as the others,
look to something associated with that cylinder.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:54:41 -0500, Tom's VR6 > wrote:

>In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled,
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>-Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
>>should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
>>looking at if this is the problem?
>>
>>-It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
>>riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
>>a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??
>
>I think your 83 would have continuous injection (CIS). So the
>injection would be central and there would not be an injector for
>each cylinder.

HUH? Every CIS I've ever seen has an injector for each cylinder.

In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, PeterD wrote:

>
>>I think your 83 would have continuous injection (CIS). So the
>>injection would be central and there would not be an injector for
>>each cylinder.
>
>HUH? Every CIS I've ever seen has an injector for each cylinder.

You are right of course. I was mis-remembering.

First off it should have a "tune-up" to make sure that the spark plugs &
wires along with all of the other ign components are in good shape. Next
replace all filters (air, oil, fuel) along with the oil.
Clean the fuel distributor bore also since they usually get cruddy.
Then you might want to have the fuel pressure tested to see if the fuel
pressure control regulator is operating correctly and the fuel pressure is
correct.
Check that ignition timing and also the timing belt timing. It might be off
1-2 notches and I have seen this too often!
Compression checking the engine is OK to do especially if the engine is
running rough. ;-)

And then check:
Oxygen Sensor = might be faulty.
Frequency Valve.
You can also see if the frequency valve is operating which helps to improve
driveability and fuel economy. This can be done with a dwell meter. I have
seen some wiring broken and it stopped the frequency valve from operating.
The frequency valve is the little electrical device on your fuel distributor
that buzzes after the engine warms up. Or it should buzz like a bee! lol

I will assume that the car rolls freely and the exhaust system is not
clogged.
You can check the vacuum too which usually can tell you what is right or
wrong with the engine.

Of course that automatic transmission may have issues too! 8^o

JMHO
--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)



> wrote in message
...
> Hello to everyone,
>
> MY CAR:
> 83 VW rabbit FI 1.7L Automatic (has 170,000 MI) gas
> MY PROBLEM:
> I had noticed since I bought my little rabbit that it was
> getting very bad gas mileage. I finally actually figured it out and
> it is far worse than I thought. It is getting about 13 MPG. This is
> for in town driving which is mostly what I use the car for. I bought
> this car because it is small and should have pretty good mileage, but
> now I feel that I may as well be driving a dump truck around town and
> throwing money out the window while I am at it. I took the car to my
> local mechanic and he looked at it yet could not find anything wrong.
> I had him check the brakes as well as for any gas leaks. However he
> did admit that he is not familiar with the fuel injection system and
> recommended me to a good VW mechanic in a nearby town. I am plannign
> on taking my car there and having them look at it, however I would
> like to hear any opinions that you may have or any simular problems so
> I am a little more educated.
> So my questions for you all are....
>
> -Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
> should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
> looking at if this is the problem?
>
> -It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
> riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
> a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??
>
> -Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?
>
> -What kind of mileage should my car be getting if it was working
> properly? I am thinking it should be around 20 in town?
>
> -Would there be any difference in MPG if it had a carb. instead of
> fuel injection?
>
> Thanks in advance!!
> chris

On Apr 26, 7:27 pm, "dave AKA vwdoc1" >
wrote:
> First off it should have a "tune-up" to make sure that the spark plugs &
> wires along with all of the other ign components are in good shape. Next
> replace all filters (air, oil, fuel) along with the oil.
> Clean the fuel distributor bore also since they usually get cruddy.
> Then you might want to have the fuel pressure tested to see if the fuel
> pressure control regulator is operating correctly and the fuel pressure is
> correct.
> Check that ignition timing and also the timing belt timing. It might be off
> 1-2 notches and I have seen this too often!
> Compression checking the engine is OK to do especially if the engine is
> running rough. ;-)
>
> And then check:
> Oxygen Sensor = might be faulty.
> Frequency Valve.
> You can also see if the frequency valve is operating which helps to improve
> driveability and fuel economy. This can be done with a dwell meter. I have
> seen some wiring broken and it stopped the frequency valve from operating.
> The frequency valve is the little electrical device on your fuel distributor
> that buzzes after the engine warms up. Or it should buzz like a bee! lol
>
> I will assume that the car rolls freely and the exhaust system is not
> clogged.
> You can check the vacuum too which usually can tell you what is right or
> wrong with the engine.
>
> Of course that automatic transmission may have issues too! 8^o
>
> JMHO
> --
> later,
> dave
> (One out of many daves)
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Hello to everyone,
>
> > MY CAR:
> > 83 VW rabbit FI 1.7L Automatic (has 170,000 MI) gas
> > MY PROBLEM:
> > I had noticed since I bought my little rabbit that it was
> > getting very bad gas mileage. I finally actually figured it out and
> > it is far worse than I thought. It is getting about 13 MPG. This is
> > for in town driving which is mostly what I use the car for. I bought
> > this car because it is small and should have pretty good mileage, but
> > now I feel that I may as well be driving a dump truck around town and
> > throwing money out the window while I am at it. I took the car to my
> > local mechanic and he looked at it yet could not find anything wrong.
> > I had him check the brakes as well as for any gas leaks. However he
> > did admit that he is not familiar with the fuel injection system and
> > recommended me to a good VW mechanic in a nearby town. I am plannign
> > on taking my car there and having them look at it, however I would
> > like to hear any opinions that you may have or any simular problems so
> > I am a little more educated.
> > So my questions for you all are....
>
> > -Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
> > should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
> > looking at if this is the problem?
>
> > -It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
> > riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
> > a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??
>
> > -Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?
>
> > -What kind of mileage should my car be getting if it was working
> > properly? I am thinking it should be around 20 in town?
>
> > -Would there be any difference in MPG if it had a carb. instead of
> > fuel injection?
>
> > Thanks in advance!!
> > chris

WOW, you all have given me a great list of things to check out that I
had not considered. Thank you so much. This is why I love this
group.

I will let you know a little more about the car to help any further
diagnosis.

It runs fine, although it does not seem to have any zip to it. I
have never had another rabbit to compare it to so I am not sure if I
am being a little hard on it or not.Could this possibly be a
transmission symptom ?? Does anyone have a vague idea as to how long
the automatic transmissions typically last?
There is no noticeable exhaust or smoke other than the white on
cold mornings. I have not smelled any gas in the exhaust either but
will take a closer look at it as I can not say I make a habit of
smelling the stuff on a regular basis.
I very recently, (this winter), had a new timing belt installed
and it was timed. When I purchased the car the timing was off and it
was extremely noticeable when driving so I feel comfortable saying
that the timing is good on it now.
I also replaced the air filter and checked it about a month ago and
it was still like new. The car had brand new spark plug wires and cap
when I purchased it 2 yrs ago, but now that I think about it I am
unsure of the plugs so I will look at those for sure.
When I purchased the car it had been sitting for a few years so when
it came into my care I have changed the oil several times to work any
gunk out of the engine, I would say about every 1,000 miles. My last
oil change was about 2 weeks ago or so and the old oil was very black
still. I use a full synthetic oil and this time I also used a
synthetic oil stabilizer to thicken the oil. Previous to that the oil
buzzer would come on almost constantly after the car was at normal
temperature, very annoying. I had the oil pressure checked and it
was low but the mechanic said normal for a car with 170,000 miles.
After I used the stabilizer it has not gone off once. I am hoping the
engine will last me for awhile yet, (fingers crossed). I do plan on
eventually having it rebuilt but I also have a 63 Nova that is first
in line.

Again thanks for all your advice I will definitely have something to
talk to the mechanic about now. I will also poke around a bit based on
your suggestions and see if I come up with anything. I will keep you
updated.

Thanks!!!
-chris

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:54:09 -0500, Tom's VR6 > wrote:

>In rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled, PeterD wrote:
>
>>
>>>I think your 83 would have continuous injection (CIS). So the
>>>injection would be central and there would not be an injector for
>>>each cylinder.
>>
>>HUH? Every CIS I've ever seen has an injector for each cylinder.
>
>You are right of course. I was mis-remembering.

<g> Happens... I always pass it off as old age, makes the kids feel
good.

If the oil was black then that could be caused by the engine running too
rich.
Your engine usually runs much better when it does not run so rich.
YES let us know what happens during the Rabbit's examination! ;-)

Listen for that frequency valve buzzing!
If it does not buzz then try adjusting the CO. Turn the adjuster
counterclockwise slowly to lean it out and use the dwell meter to check the
frequency valve reading.
--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

> wrote in message
...

snip

> WOW, you all have given me a great list of things to check out that I
> had not considered. Thank you so much. This is why I love this
> group.
>
> I will let you know a little more about the car to help any further
> diagnosis.
>
> It runs fine, although it does not seem to have any zip to it. I
> have never had another rabbit to compare it to so I am not sure if I
> am being a little hard on it or not.Could this possibly be a
> transmission symptom ?? Does anyone have a vague idea as to how long
> the automatic transmissions typically last?
> There is no noticeable exhaust or smoke other than the white on
> cold mornings. I have not smelled any gas in the exhaust either but
> will take a closer look at it as I can not say I make a habit of
> smelling the stuff on a regular basis.
> I very recently, (this winter), had a new timing belt installed
> and it was timed. When I purchased the car the timing was off and it
> was extremely noticeable when driving so I feel comfortable saying
> that the timing is good on it now.
> I also replaced the air filter and checked it about a month ago and
> it was still like new. The car had brand new spark plug wires and cap
> when I purchased it 2 yrs ago, but now that I think about it I am
> unsure of the plugs so I will look at those for sure.
> When I purchased the car it had been sitting for a few years so when
> it came into my care I have changed the oil several times to work any
> gunk out of the engine, I would say about every 1,000 miles. My last
> oil change was about 2 weeks ago or so and the old oil was very black
> still. I use a full synthetic oil and this time I also used a
> synthetic oil stabilizer to thicken the oil. Previous to that the oil
> buzzer would come on almost constantly after the car was at normal
> temperature, very annoying. I had the oil pressure checked and it
> was low but the mechanic said normal for a car with 170,000 miles.
> After I used the stabilizer it has not gone off once. I am hoping the
> engine will last me for awhile yet, (fingers crossed). I do plan on
> eventually having it rebuilt but I also have a 63 Nova that is first
> in line.
>
> Again thanks for all your advice I will definitely have something to
> talk to the mechanic about now. I will also poke around a bit based on
> your suggestions and see if I come up with anything. I will keep you
> updated.
>
> Thanks!!!
> -chris

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:24:35 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Apr 26, 7:27 pm, "dave AKA vwdoc1" >
>wrote:
>> First off it should have a "tune-up" to make sure that the spark plugs &
>> wires along with all of the other ign components are in good shape. Next
>> replace all filters (air, oil, fuel) along with the oil.
>> Clean the fuel distributor bore also since they usually get cruddy.
>> Then you might want to have the fuel pressure tested to see if the fuel
>> pressure control regulator is operating correctly and the fuel pressure is
>> correct.
>> Check that ignition timing and also the timing belt timing. It might be off
>> 1-2 notches and I have seen this too often!
>> Compression checking the engine is OK to do especially if the engine is
>> running rough. ;-)
>>
>> And then check:
>> Oxygen Sensor = might be faulty.
>> Frequency Valve.
>> You can also see if the frequency valve is operating which helps to improve
>> driveability and fuel economy. This can be done with a dwell meter. I have
>> seen some wiring broken and it stopped the frequency valve from operating.
>> The frequency valve is the little electrical device on your fuel distributor
>> that buzzes after the engine warms up. Or it should buzz like a bee! lol
>>
>> I will assume that the car rolls freely and the exhaust system is not
>> clogged.
>> You can check the vacuum too which usually can tell you what is right or
>> wrong with the engine.
>>
>> Of course that automatic transmission may have issues too! 8^o
>>
>> JMHO
>> --
>> later,
>> dave
>> (One out of many daves)
>>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > Hello to everyone,
>>
>> > MY CAR:
>> > 83 VW rabbit FI 1.7L Automatic (has 170,000 MI) gas
>> > MY PROBLEM:
>> > I had noticed since I bought my little rabbit that it was
>> > getting very bad gas mileage. I finally actually figured it out and
>> > it is far worse than I thought. It is getting about 13 MPG. This is
>> > for in town driving which is mostly what I use the car for. I bought
>> > this car because it is small and should have pretty good mileage, but
>> > now I feel that I may as well be driving a dump truck around town and
>> > throwing money out the window while I am at it. I took the car to my
>> > local mechanic and he looked at it yet could not find anything wrong.
>> > I had him check the brakes as well as for any gas leaks. However he
>> > did admit that he is not familiar with the fuel injection system and
>> > recommended me to a good VW mechanic in a nearby town. I am plannign
>> > on taking my car there and having them look at it, however I would
>> > like to hear any opinions that you may have or any simular problems so
>> > I am a little more educated.
>> > So my questions for you all are....
>>
>> > -Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
>> > should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
>> > looking at if this is the problem?
>>
>> > -It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
>> > riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
>> > a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??
>>
>> > -Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?
>>
>> > -What kind of mileage should my car be getting if it was working
>> > properly? I am thinking it should be around 20 in town?
>>
>> > -Would there be any difference in MPG if it had a carb. instead of
>> > fuel injection?
>>
>> > Thanks in advance!!
>> > chris
>
>WOW, you all have given me a great list of things to check out that I
>had not considered. Thank you so much. This is why I love this
>group.
>
>I will let you know a little more about the car to help any further
>diagnosis.
>
> It runs fine, although it does not seem to have any zip to it. I
>have never had another rabbit to compare it to so I am not sure if I
>am being a little hard on it or not.Could this possibly be a
>transmission symptom ?? Does anyone have a vague idea as to how long
>the automatic transmissions typically last?
> There is no noticeable exhaust or smoke other than the white on
>cold mornings. I have not smelled any gas in the exhaust either but
>will take a closer look at it as I can not say I make a habit of
>smelling the stuff on a regular basis.
> I very recently, (this winter), had a new timing belt installed
>and it was timed. When I purchased the car the timing was off and it
>was extremely noticeable when driving so I feel comfortable saying
>that the timing is good on it now.
> I also replaced the air filter and checked it about a month ago and
>it was still like new. The car had brand new spark plug wires and cap
>when I purchased it 2 yrs ago, but now that I think about it I am
>unsure of the plugs so I will look at those for sure.
> When I purchased the car it had been sitting for a few years so when
>it came into my care I have changed the oil several times to work any
>gunk out of the engine, I would say about every 1,000 miles. My last
>oil change was about 2 weeks ago or so and the old oil was very black
>still. I use a full synthetic oil and this time I also used a
>synthetic oil stabilizer to thicken the oil. Previous to that the oil
>buzzer would come on almost constantly after the car was at normal
>temperature, very annoying. I had the oil pressure checked and it
>was low but the mechanic said normal for a car with 170,000 miles.
>After I used the stabilizer it has not gone off once. I am hoping the
>engine will last me for awhile yet, (fingers crossed). I do plan on
>eventually having it rebuilt but I also have a 63 Nova that is first
>in line.
>
>Again thanks for all your advice I will definitely have something to
>talk to the mechanic about now. I will also poke around a bit based on
>your suggestions and see if I come up with anything. I will keep you
>updated.
>
>Thanks!!!
>-chris
Do not believe that the timing belt is correct. Make sure it is
correct.

Exhaust blocks. I have melted down a few catalytic converters. The
honey comb matrix turns in to a blob. Chunks can fall off the back end
and clog the muffler. Visual inspection of both ends of the converter
is required. While the converter is removed you can take the car for a
noisy test drive to see if performance improves. A chunk of converter
in the muffler makes for poor performance and some interesting noises
as exhaust tries to escape everywhere.

Injectors should be removed and inspected for flow and pattern. Any
good VW shop knows how to do this. All screens should be cleaned. That
would be the screens in the Control Pressure Regulator and in the fuel
injector banjo bolts of the fuel distributor.

The car should get 30 mpg if you drive 15 mile one way trips and do
not drive like a maniac. This mileage is for manual transmission with
a person who knows when to shift.

20w50 oil will stop the oil buzzer without the risk of oil additives
making a mess of your oil. I never used oil additives in my Rabbits
but they only had 300,000 miles on them. Actually I think I did once
and the oil turned a horrid shade of black and smelled real bad.
Unless you do something stupid those engines will last a long time if
they are properly oiled.

Tire pressure at 30 psi checked a few times a month.

Fast is not what the car is. Zippy enough though for general driving.
It should feel faster than a 1970 Nova with a 250 and a Powerglide.

I guess this has already been covered by others. Never mind.

No carb. I have worked on factory carb VWs. Not as zippy as injected.
The cost to convert probably as expensive as replacing clogged
injectors. The unreliablilty of the injector system is overblown. I
had my Rabbits for 15 years with little injector maintenance. Probably
400,000 miles worth of driving.

wrote:
> Hello to everyone,
>
> -Are there any common problems that these fuel injectors have that I
> should be aware of? Also any idea of what kind of cost I could be
> looking at if this is the problem?

The CIS injectors are more prone to bad flow patterns when dirty. When clean,
they will actually perform better than modern electronic injectors.

> -It seems as though I have heard somewhere that the injectors are
> riddled with problems and if new ones are needed it may be wise to put
> a carb. on it instead. Any opinions??

Whoever told you that is an anti-fuel injection luddite. K-Jetronic is
*NOT* riddled with problems, and carburetors are always inferior. Not only
that but they require a lot more attention than K-Jetronic. My opinion
is ignore anyone who tells you that you ought to switch to carburetors.
It should tell you something that not only did VW choose CIS for the higher
performance Rabbit GTI, but they stuck with CIS injection all the way up
to 1992 for their higher performance 16V cars. Honda was still running carbs
up through 1991, but had abandoned it for their higher performance cars
by the mid-late 80s. If its so great why did all the high performance cars
get fuel injection and the low performance ones get carbs? Porsche thought
so highly of fuel injection they brought out K-Jetronic for their top of the
line 911 in 1973 when K-Jet was brand new.

> -Any other causes for having such poor mileage that I can look for?

Well, it depends on your driving what you should be getting, but 13 mpg
is very very bad no matter what you are doing. The most obvious problems
would be a bad O2 sensor/frequency valve, warm up regulator, and timing
(both cam and ignition). You can also check for dragging brakes.
The easiest way to do that in my opinion would be to get on the highway
and have a friend drive along side you with a infrared thermometer aimed
at your wheels.

Its also possible was monkeying with the mixture adjustment screw on the
fuel distributor. Don't touch that if you don't know what you are doing,
its easy to screw up.

You should take the car to a shop that knows CIS cars (which might be hard
to find since VW was one of the last users and they abandonded it on most of
their cars by 88). If you are getting that bad gas mileage the cause
should be pretty obvious, and I suspect they can find it in 2 hours.

The real question is, is it worth it. It's an automatic 83 rabbit with a
low-end motor. If its going to cost 3 hours labor and $150 in parts... Oh
and btw, there's a good chance your cat is shot... Is that really worth it
to fix a car thats worth maybe $1000 if running perfect?

> -What kind of mileage should my car be getting if it was working
> properly? I am thinking it should be around 20 in town?

Its going to depend on the weather. A manual car should probably be getting
at least low 30s on the highway and mid 20s in town. Automatics would
be worse, but I doubt it would be 20.

> -Would there be any difference in MPG if it had a carb. instead of
> fuel injection?

Absolutely, gas mileage would go down.

> Thanks in advance!!
> chris