patching radial tires?

I ran into an interesting problem, and im not sure exactly what
happened. i had a tire (bridgestone "hoop" 13" motorcycle tire, 3 ply
nylon) with 2 small punctures. one was a drywall screw, and the other
looks like a small trim tack or nail.

Took the tire off with my Harbor Freight tire remover, which I bought
special for the occasion. I then patched both holes with Monkey brand
radial tire patches. buffed the areas, applied the cement, waited til
dry (i THINK, and this is where i may have screwed up), then peeled off
the backing and applied the patches. i did not use a "knitting tool" and
this is another thing i may have done wrong.

Anyhow- both patches held for about a month, then i noticed a slow leak
after work yesterday. put air in, got it home, put "slime" in for the
time being. Probably shouldnt have done that either, since i knew id be
taking the tire off to see WTF went wrong.

Today, i took off the tire, and both patches were completely off in a
bed of slime, and had some rubber cement gobbed up on em.

So i take this OTHER tire i have, which had a nail go through it and
patch that for the time being. i have a new tire ordered, but its on
backorder and will probably be a week.

this one has ONE hole, and I used a "monkey brand" patch/plug combo.
made sure the tire was clean, installed the patch/plug (which does NOT
require rubber cement), pulled it through, "knitted" it, cut off the
plug end. So far, so good.

Still wary from my previous patching experience, i installed an even
LARGER radial tire patch over the patch/plug combo. Buffed the whole
area, applied rubber cement, installed patch, knitted as directed.

Now, the questions:

What could have caused both original patches to not hold?

Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch?

Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug?

Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if
anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch
isnt working.

Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have
another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont
understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is
not working for me, hence the questions.

SoCalMike wrote:
> I ran into an interesting problem, and im not sure exactly what
> happened. i had a tire (bridgestone "hoop" 13" motorcycle tire, 3 ply
> nylon) with 2 small punctures. one was a drywall screw, and the other
> looks like a small trim tack or nail.
>
> Took the tire off with my Harbor Freight tire remover, which I bought
> special for the occasion. I then patched both holes with Monkey brand
> radial tire patches. buffed the areas, applied the cement, waited til
> dry (i THINK, and this is where i may have screwed up), then peeled off
> the backing and applied the patches. i did not use a "knitting tool" and
> this is another thing i may have done wrong.
>
> Anyhow- both patches held for about a month, then i noticed a slow leak
> after work yesterday. put air in, got it home, put "slime" in for the
> time being. Probably shouldnt have done that either, since i knew id be
> taking the tire off to see WTF went wrong.
>
> Today, i took off the tire, and both patches were completely off in a
> bed of slime, and had some rubber cement gobbed up on em.
>
> So i take this OTHER tire i have, which had a nail go through it and
> patch that for the time being. i have a new tire ordered, but its on
> backorder and will probably be a week.
>
> this one has ONE hole, and I used a "monkey brand" patch/plug combo.
> made sure the tire was clean, installed the patch/plug (which does NOT
> require rubber cement), pulled it through, "knitted" it, cut off the
> plug end. So far, so good.
>
> Still wary from my previous patching experience, i installed an even
> LARGER radial tire patch over the patch/plug combo. Buffed the whole
> area, applied rubber cement, installed patch, knitted as directed.
>
> Now, the questions:
>
> What could have caused both original patches to not hold?
Flexing of the casing.

>
> Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch?
Yes, usually.

>
> Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug?
Yes.

>
> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if
> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch
> isnt working.

Probably gave you a false sense of security.

>
> Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have
> another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont
> understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is
> not working for me, hence the questions.
It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to
fail.

Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work.

John S. wrote:
>> What could have caused both original patches to not hold?
> Flexing of the casing.

so not following the "stitching" procedure and possibly not letting the
rubber adhesive dry
>
>> Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch?
> Yes, usually.
>
>> Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug?
> Yes.

thought so. now ill have issues with 2 different patches flexing over
the casing?
>
>> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if
>> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch
>> isnt working.
>
> Probably gave you a false sense of security.

as long as it doesnt help the patches come off
>
>> Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have
>> another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont
>> understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is
>> not working for me, hence the questions.
> It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to
> fail.

tires are repaired all the time using patches, plugs or some
combination. with proper installation, im under the impression they
should become one with the tire. otherwise, why sell a product that
plain doesnt work at all?

and what do the places that repair tires use?
>
> Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work.

its on order and will be here in about a week.

SoCalMike wrote:
> John S. wrote:
> >> What could have caused both original patches to not hold?
> > Flexing of the casing.
>
> so not following the "stitching" procedure and possibly not letting the
> rubber adhesive dry
> >
> >> Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch?
> > Yes, usually.
> >
> >> Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug?
> > Yes.
>
> thought so. now ill have issues with 2 different patches flexing over
> the casing?

Yes, if they are layered over one another.


> >
> >> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if
> >> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch
> >> isnt working.
> >
> > Probably gave you a false sense of security.
>
> as long as it doesnt help the patches come off
> >
> >> Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have
> >> another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont
> >> understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is
> >> not working for me, hence the questions.
> > It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to
> > fail.
>
> tires are repaired all the time using patches, plugs or some
> combination. with proper installation, im under the impression they
> should become one with the tire. otherwise, why sell a product that
> plain doesnt work at all?

Think about the forces that work on a patch vs a plug for a minute.
The plug has the greatest chance of working, but there are no
guarantees.

>
> and what do the places that repair tires use?

Plugs seem to be the most frequently used in my experience.


> >
> > Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work.
>
> its on order and will be here in about a week.

"SoCalMike" > wrote in message
...
> John S. wrote:
>>> What could have caused both original patches to not hold?
>> Flexing of the casing.
>
> so not following the "stitching" procedure and possibly not letting the
> rubber adhesive dry
>>
>>> Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch?
>> Yes, usually.
>>
>>> Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug?
>> Yes.
>
> thought so. now ill have issues with 2 different patches flexing over the
> casing?
>>
>>> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if
>>> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch
>>> isnt working.
>>
>> Probably gave you a false sense of security.
>
> as long as it doesnt help the patches come off
>>
>>> Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have
>>> another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont
>>> understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is
>>> not working for me, hence the questions.
>> It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to
>> fail.
>
> tires are repaired all the time using patches, plugs or some combination.
> with proper installation, im under the impression they should become one
> with the tire. otherwise, why sell a product that plain doesnt work at
> all?
>
> and what do the places that repair tires use?

I had my van tire repaired at a tire place once. A few months later, on the
highway in the FL panhandle driving back to TX, started hearing a funny
"whup whup" noise. On checking, there was a giant bubble in the tread where
the fix was. Looked like air bled in between the layers of the tire.

Anyway, the tire places don't always get it right either.

>>
>> Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work.
>
> its on order and will be here in about a week.

I'm no expert, but have had a little experience.
I used to use the sticky wick inserts a lot, and never had a failure.
I liked the way they seemed to seal the inside of the puncture.

On a few occasions where the puncture was large, I would use these
wicks first, then open the tire and trim off the wick and patch over it.

What I believe I have observed is that some of the internal patches
seem to have a very poor adhesive and they come off no matter how
clean you make the surface.

At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch
that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint it
with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch was
applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well.

It has been a long time since I have seen or worked with these latter
patches. Maybe they dont exist anymore, and maybe they were never
as good as they seemed to be.

But I believe that not all patches are created equal. Maybe someone
here can give us the straight story.

wrote in article
>.. .
>
> At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch
> that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint
it
> with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch
was
> applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well.
>

That was a "smoke-and-mirrors" deal......

There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which
require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous!

The practice was begun by impatient gas station operators who didn't want
to wait for the excess cement to dry while the customer was tapping his
foot in the office.

It does ABSOULTELY NOTHING to enhance the repair - and tire industry reps
have shown it likely introduces carbon into the bond between the patch and
the host - effectively making a much lower quality repair which could be
subject to premature failure.

"Hot patches" are an entirely different story......being patches that are
actually melted into the host rubber - either electrically or by burning
the material contained in the patch's metal cup backer while the patch is
firmly clamped to the host.

I prefer hot patches for most of my tire repair work.

Those were hot vulcanizing patches. They had a metal cup backing on
them that got clamped in place with a solid fuel inside you lit on fire
after the brush and glue prep. Some folks that didn't know any better
used to light the glue thinking this was the same as they saw on the
real ones. Kinda like if the hot patch works, lets make the glue hot.
I don't believe that had much benefit.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

wrote:
>
> I'm no expert, but have had a little experience.
> I used to use the sticky wick inserts a lot, and never had a failure.
> I liked the way they seemed to seal the inside of the puncture.
>
> On a few occasions where the puncture was large, I would use these
> wicks first, then open the tire and trim off the wick and patch over it.
>
> What I believe I have observed is that some of the internal patches
> seem to have a very poor adhesive and they come off no matter how
> clean you make the surface.
>
> At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch
> that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint it
> with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch was
> applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well.
>
> It has been a long time since I have seen or worked with these latter
> patches. Maybe they dont exist anymore, and maybe they were never
> as good as they seemed to be.
>
> But I believe that not all patches are created equal. Maybe someone
> here can give us the straight story.

"*" > wrote in message
news:01c6138e$fbd100a0$68a3c3d8@race...
>
>
> wrote in article
> >.. .
> >
> > At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch
> > that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint
> it
> > with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch
> was
> > applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well.
> >
>
> That was a "smoke-and-mirrors" deal......
>
> There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which
> require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous!

From the tone of my post, you probably realize that I suspected as much.
Still, these patches seemed to hold well. They were not dangerous as such,
but if you had people pumping gasoline in the vicinity, or working with
solvents, etc, then they contributed to a hazard.


>
> "Hot patches" are an entirely different story......being patches that are
> actually melted into the host rubber - either electrically or by burning
> the material contained in the patch's metal cup backer while the patch is
> firmly clamped to the host.

I remember hot patch equipment as well. Haven't seen it in a long time.

I stand with the statement that some adhesive patches hold better than
others. There is a lot of cheap crap out there. Good patches aren't free.

> wrote in message
om...
>
> "*" > wrote in message
> news:01c6138e$fbd100a0$68a3c3d8@race...
> >
> >
> > wrote in article
> > >.. .
> > >
> > > At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch
> > > that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then
paint
> > it
> > > with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the
patch
> > was
> > > applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very
well.
> > >
> >
> > That was a "smoke-and-mirrors" deal......
> >
> > There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which
> > require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous!
>
> From the tone of my post, you probably realize that I suspected as much.
> Still, these patches seemed to hold well. They were not dangerous as
such,
> but if you had people pumping gasoline in the vicinity, or working with
> solvents, etc, then they contributed to a hazard.
>
>
> >
> > "Hot patches" are an entirely different story......being patches that
are
> > actually melted into the host rubber - either electrically or by burning
> > the material contained in the patch's metal cup backer while the patch
is
> > firmly clamped to the host.
>
> I remember hot patch equipment as well. Haven't seen it in a long time.
>
> I stand with the statement that some adhesive patches hold better than
> others. There is a lot of cheap crap out there. Good patches aren't
free.


I don't remember using hot patches on tires themselves,
only on tubes, which (to say the least) aren't widely used
on passenger cars anymore.