EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something
>>> like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people
>>> work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The
>>> cost t fix it is in the billions and for what?
>>
>> I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?
>>
>> Do you think it was a small cadre?
>> Or basically everyone?
>>
>
> In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to
> 50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build,
> test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would
> probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in
> engineering would know.

And every one of them should experience serios prison time.

On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

>>
>> Murder is illegal but people still do it.
>
> But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
> crime.
>
>
But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Murder is illegal but people still do it.
>>
>> But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
>> doing the crime.
>>
>>
> But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
> deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.

Bob F wrote:
> Bob F wrote:
>> NoSpamForMe wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>>>> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
>>>> 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
>>>> emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.
>>>>
>>>> REFERENCES:
>>>> http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
>>>> http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
>>>> http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
>>>> emissions?
>>>
>>> It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
>>> I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
>>> for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
>>> wind resistance to push
>>> against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
>>> the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!
>>
>> Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!
>
> Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
> is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
> 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
>
>
Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

> Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
> Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
> new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
> small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Tony Hwang > wrote:
>>
>Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
>Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
>new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
>small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that
they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that
the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

| Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel
engines
| is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to
cheating on
| 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
|

I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole
issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out
most of the cars are in Europe, where despite
environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are
light and testing is limited.

So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy,
in Europe it comes across as something less extreme.
A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than
an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but
not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it
seems in the US.

Winston_Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> You would still need to measure actual
>> emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.
>
> I think this makes sense.
>
> The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.
>
> In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".
>
> Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
> that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
> (i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
> engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
> NOx emissions.
>
> Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
> VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
> be damned.
>
> There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
> money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
> wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.
>
> The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).
>
> The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
> guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
> guest stole money out of your wallet.
>

Actually the fuel mapping would be the reverse of that. Running rich on
a diesel reduces NOx because the extra fuel cools the burn. Lean it out
and create more heat and you get higher NOx.

This is the reason why 99% of the VW owners bragged about getting better
mpg numbers than the EPA tests as well.

--
Steve W.

Bob F wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>
>>>> Murder is illegal but people still do it.
>>> But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
>>> doing the crime.
>>>
>>>
>> But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
>> deterrent.
>
> We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
> prison time.
>
> I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
> than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
> crime.
>
>
>
>

Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.

The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

--
Steve W.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
>>> that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
>>> projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
>>> in the billions and for what?
>> I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?
>>
>> Do you think it was a small cadre?
>> Or basically everyone?
>>
>
> In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
> engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
> and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
> have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

The only real change is in the code map in the ECM. They basically had a
"normal" map for constant driving and a "test map" that only engaged
when undergoing tests. I would bet it took fewer that 10 people to do
the entire thing.

You need to consider that the engineers already know how to make the
engine run and get good mileage and wrote the software to do that.
However that programming didn't pass the EPA testing.

The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.
Something like
IF the engine is running at XXX rpm but there is a connector in the OBD
test port, with no input from the steering rack and the parking brake is
set, add 2% fuel enrichment to the drive cycle.

Extra fuel cools the fuel burn and drops the NOx to legal limits. Car
passes.


--
Steve W.