Outside edge of front tires stairstepping

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:56:34 -0700, Bill Vanek >
wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno >
>wrote:
>
>>You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
>>life in general. Both are necessary.
>
>Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
>vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
>never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
>choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
>are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
>back, where it might be even worse.
Recommendation on the 4runner is front to back only I move mine from
front to back every time I switch seasinal tires on both of my
vehicles.

On 7/6/2017 9:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:55:24 +1000, Xeno > wrote:
>
>> Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.
>
> I think the advice so far is good in that it's either of these two:
> 1. Too much camber (top spread out) + too much toe (front spread in)
> 2. Hills with curves
>
> If it's the alignment (camber plus toe) it can only be fixed with an
> alignment. If it's the hills with curves, there's nothing to fix.
>
> The fact that the rear tires have no obvious strange wear might be a clue
> to help. Would the hills with curves also affect the rear?
>
> Or do hills with curves only affect the front feathering?
>
>>> The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
>>> or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.
>>>
>> The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.
>
> I don't enthusiastically corner. Period. I drive slowly.
> But I can't change the five miles each way that are hills with sharp curves
> where most are hairpins and there is no stripe in the road since it's too
> narrow for a center stripe.
>
> I'm guessing the speeds are 20mps or so but the turns are extreme.
>
> Would that only affect the front feathering leaving the rear unfeathered?
> It's a rear drive 2WD basic SUV with a solid rear axle I am told.
>
>> One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
>> thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
>> bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
>> corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
>> now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
>> always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
>> steering arms.
>
> Anything can happen at a pothole or curb but I seriously doubt anything
> major is "bent" since I'm the only driver and it was thoroughly checked two
> years ago when I bought it, including a full four wheel alignment.
>
> My main question is how to determine if the front feathering is only due to
> the 90 and 180 degree corners on a 10% grade (I'm told) I have to go
> through at 20 mph every day (at least twenty of them each way).
>
> Would that type of hilly curve NOT affect the rear tires at all?
>

Quick turns back and forth can be very hard on tires. I made the mistake
once of wiggling the steering wheel back and forth at 50mph to make my
van do a "dance". Just tiny motions, 8 or 10 times to get the van
rocking. Looking at the snow/ice tires after that I noticed that the
outside edge of the front tires with the fine tread siping was actually
shredded. Your switchbacks are an amplified version of that motion.

Slowing down might make a big difference.

Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." > wrote:
>
>> What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
>> more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
>> appear as a wedge.
>>
>> It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
>> by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
>> common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
>> cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
>> tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.
>>
>> Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
>> going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
>> normally a suspension wear problem.
>
> That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
> expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
> the tires are about a year old).
>
> The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
> it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
> can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).
>
> Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
> day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

That would do it. Especially if you travel it in both directions.
Downhill places much more weight on the front end and will wear the
tires faster. I would probably rotate the tires more often to try to
compensate for the wear. You might want to step up to a stiffer sidewall
and maybe even add some camber to even out the wear on the tires a bit.


--
Steve W.

On 07/07/2017 10:17 AM, wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:56:34 -0700, Bill Vanek >
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
>>> life in general. Both are necessary.
>>
>> Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
>> vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
>> never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
>> choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
>> are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
>> back, where it might be even worse.
> Recommendation on the 4runner is front to back only I move mine from
> front to back every time I switch seasinal tires on both of my
> vehicles.
>

That's my plan. Put the studs on the opposite end from where I removed
them last spring, same with the road tires. It comes close to the 5000
mile Toyota recommends.

On 07/07/2017 12:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
> Slowing down might make a big difference.

From reading the thread if she goes any slower she'll be parked in the
road.

In rec.autos.tech, on Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:27:02 -0400,
wrote:

>
>
>You ARE going "too fast" for the tires and conditions. Again - what
>vehicle, and what tire - and WHAT PRESSURE are you running. Placard
>pressure for stock tires is about 5psi too low for best cornering wear
>on most cars - and for heavy cornering with front wheel drive mabee a
>bit more. I generally run8 to 10 psi over placard pressure - and I get
>even tire wear and very good tire life.

But doesn't the higher pressure make the ride a whole lot bumpier,
unless the road is perfectly flat?

On 07/07/2017 11:07 PM, micky wrote:
> In rec.autos.tech, on Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:27:02 -0400,
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> You ARE going "too fast" for the tires and conditions. Again - what
>> vehicle, and what tire - and WHAT PRESSURE are you running. Placard
>> pressure for stock tires is about 5psi too low for best cornering wear
>> on most cars - and for heavy cornering with front wheel drive mabee a
>> bit more. I generally run8 to 10 psi over placard pressure - and I get
>> even tire wear and very good tire life.
>
> But doesn't the higher pressure make the ride a whole lot bumpier,
> unless the road is perfectly flat?
>

No. In modern cars you float on a magic cushion of air. otoh, she did
say 4runner. At least for the first generation nothing could make the
ride any worse.

On 8/07/2017 2:17 AM, wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:56:34 -0700, Bill Vanek >
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
>>> life in general. Both are necessary.
>>
>> Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
>> vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
>> never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
>> choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
>> are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
>> back, where it might be even worse.
> Recommendation on the 4runner is front to back only I move mine from
> front to back every time I switch seasinal tires on both of my
> vehicles.
>
Indeed. Some tyres do not like their rotation direction reversed so
switching front with rear on the same side is the norm there. Some
manufacturers specify a diagonal swap. As always, manufacturers advice
is best followed.

--

Xeno

On Sat, 08 Jul 2017 01:07:27 -0400, micky >
wrote:

>In rec.autos.tech, on Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:27:02 -0400,
wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>You ARE going "too fast" for the tires and conditions. Again - what
>>vehicle, and what tire - and WHAT PRESSURE are you running. Placard
>>pressure for stock tires is about 5psi too low for best cornering wear
>>on most cars - and for heavy cornering with front wheel drive mabee a
>>bit more. I generally run8 to 10 psi over placard pressure - and I get
>>even tire wear and very good tire life.
>
>But doesn't the higher pressure make the ride a whole lot bumpier,
>unless the road is perfectly flat?
5PSI is almost undetectable and 10PSI on a 70 series tire still rides
a lot better than a "properly inflated" 60 series.

On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:27:29 +1000, Xeno >
wrote:

>On 8/07/2017 2:17 AM, wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:56:34 -0700, Bill Vanek >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
>>>> life in general. Both are necessary.
>>>
>>> Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
>>> vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
>>> never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
>>> choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
>>> are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
>>> back, where it might be even worse.
>> Recommendation on the 4runner is front to back only I move mine from
>> front to back every time I switch seasinal tires on both of my
>> vehicles.
>>
>Indeed. Some tyres do not like their rotation direction reversed so
>switching front with rear on the same side is the norm there. Some
>manufacturers specify a diagonal swap. As always, manufacturers advice
>is best followed.
But do you follow the tire manufacturer's instructions or the
vehicle?
You can NOT go wrong doing a 4 way front to back only rotation.