A/C problems

Since I read your post, it's quit on me twice and in both cases, I
opted to keep going as there was not an acceptable place to pull over
either time. Plus my destination was less than 5-10 minutes away. But
in both cases, it started blowing cold again by the time I had reached
where I was going. (aarrgghh!)
Decided to pull over immediately next time, no matter what. But so
far, there hasn't been a next time. I'm looking forward though, to
the third time charm.
Rick

On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:56:41 -0700, bllsht wrote:
>Typical failing clutch symptoms. Easy to check, too. When it stops
>working, pull over, leave it running with the A/C on, open the hood
>and look at the compressor clutch. If it's engaged, that's not your
>problem. If it's not, grab your favorite tool (hammer) and tap the
>compressor near the clutch. If it engages, you need a clutch. Pretty
>common occurrence on an XJ. Clutch can be changed separately, too.
>Jiffy Lube? Wouldn't even let them change my oil...

On Fri, 01 Jul 2011 10:13:30 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:

>>My air conditioner has gone flakey on me but the symptoms aren't
>>consistent so I haven't been able to get a diagnosis. It blows hot
>>and cold.
>>
>>Usually, when I first turn it on, it blows cold.... for awhile, maybe
>>10-15 minutes (or more or less).... then the cold goes away and it
>>feels lmore ike outside air blown by the vent fan.
>>But if I leave the control on "A/C, it might start blowing cold air
>>again after another 10-15 minutes. When I'm driving, I can't hear
>>anything turning on/off under the hood nor can I feel anything.
>>
>>Jiffy Lube guy (who also services A/C) couldn't make it act up when he
>>checked it and he guessed it might be hoses freezing up. The
>>dealership couldn't make it act up either and they guessed it would be
>>the compressor clutch, so best to replace the whole compressor (for
>>about $1000). Both Jiffy and dealer told me to bring it back in when
>>it's not working. But my crystal ball stopped working years ago and I
>>never KNOW when it's going to work and when it's not. It both comes
>>and goes with no warning and no regularity.
>>
>>Anybody want to take a stab at what the problem might be? And better
>>yet, an inexpensive way to nurse it along through the summer?
>>
>>Rick
>>HeBeJeepN
>>'99 XJ Sport, Selec-Trac, Trac-Lok

Well, the third time was the charm.
I pulled over as soon as the cold air quit and sure enough, the clutch
had disengaged. So I tapped on everything that the hammer could reach
but the clutch just never would engage. So I drove on home, 5 minutes
away, found a screwdriver and used it and the hammer to bump the
clutch face over in the direction the belt was turning.... bingo. It
engaged on the first tap and I was right back to having cold air.
Nice call Mr Bllsht :-)

Now the question is, what to do next. The dealer wants $1000 +/- to
replace both the clutch and compressor. Almost as much to replace the
clutch alone. Is a compressor clutch something that a jackleg like me
can replace without specialized a/c tools and such? OR.... instead of
the dealer, I think I can get a much better price from an independent
mechanic who owns a Cherokee of the same vintage as mine. I'm thinkin'
he's more familiar with it than any other independent guys around
town. I don't know how much he knows about a/c though.
Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:46:04 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>Since I read your post, it's quit on me twice and in both cases, I
>opted to keep going as there was not an acceptable place to pull over
>either time. Plus my destination was less than 5-10 minutes away. But
>in both cases, it started blowing cold again by the time I had reached
>where I was going. (aarrgghh!)
>Decided to pull over immediately next time, no matter what. But so
>far, there hasn't been a next time. I'm looking forward though, to
>the third time charm.
>Rick
>
>On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:56:41 -0700, bllsht wrote:
>>Typical failing clutch symptoms. Easy to check, too. When it stops
>>working, pull over, leave it running with the A/C on, open the hood
>>and look at the compressor clutch. If it's engaged, that's not your
>>problem. If it's not, grab your favorite tool (hammer) and tap the
>>compressor near the clutch. If it engages, you need a clutch. Pretty
>>common occurrence on an XJ. Clutch can be changed separately, too.
>>Jiffy Lube? Wouldn't even let them change my oil...
>
>On Fri, 01 Jul 2011 10:13:30 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>
>>>My air conditioner has gone flakey on me but the symptoms aren't
>>>consistent so I haven't been able to get a diagnosis. It blows hot
>>>and cold.
>>>
>>>Usually, when I first turn it on, it blows cold.... for awhile, maybe
>>>10-15 minutes (or more or less).... then the cold goes away and it
>>>feels lmore ike outside air blown by the vent fan.
>>>But if I leave the control on "A/C, it might start blowing cold air
>>>again after another 10-15 minutes. When I'm driving, I can't hear
>>>anything turning on/off under the hood nor can I feel anything.
>>>
>>>Jiffy Lube guy (who also services A/C) couldn't make it act up when he
>>>checked it and he guessed it might be hoses freezing up. The
>>>dealership couldn't make it act up either and they guessed it would be
>>>the compressor clutch, so best to replace the whole compressor (for
>>>about $1000). Both Jiffy and dealer told me to bring it back in when
>>>it's not working. But my crystal ball stopped working years ago and I
>>>never KNOW when it's going to work and when it's not. It both comes
>>>and goes with no warning and no regularity.
>>>
>>>Anybody want to take a stab at what the problem might be? And better
>>>yet, an inexpensive way to nurse it along through the summer?
>>>
>>>Rick
>>>HeBeJeepN
>>>'99 XJ Sport, Selec-Trac, Trac-Lok

On 7/5/2011 3:21 PM, lid wrote:
> Well, the third time was the charm.
> I pulled over as soon as the cold air quit and sure enough, the clutch
> had disengaged. So I tapped on everything that the hammer could reach
> but the clutch just never would engage. So I drove on home, 5 minutes
> away, found a screwdriver and used it and the hammer to bump the
> clutch face over in the direction the belt was turning.... bingo. It
> engaged on the first tap and I was right back to having cold air.
> Nice call Mr Bllsht :-)
>
> Now the question is, what to do next. The dealer wants $1000 +/- to
> replace both the clutch and compressor. Almost as much to replace the
> clutch alone. Is a compressor clutch something that a jackleg like me
> can replace without specialized a/c tools and such? OR.... instead of
> the dealer, I think I can get a much better price from an independent
> mechanic who owns a Cherokee of the same vintage as mine. I'm thinkin'
> he's more familiar with it than any other independent guys around
> town. I don't know how much he knows about a/c though.
> Any suggestions appreciated.
>

I'd suggest an independent AC shop with a good reputation, not a dealer.
Not any shop, but one that really knows how to do AC work, as replacing
either the clutch or the entire compressor requires skills that someone
who is just a mechanic won't have.

--
I'm never going to grow up.

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:35:08 -0400, PeterD wrote:
>I'd suggest an independent AC shop with a good reputation, not a dealer.
>Not any shop, but one that really knows how to do AC work, as replacing
>either the clutch or the entire compressor requires skills that someone
>who is just a mechanic won't have.

ugh.... I was 'fraid of that.
But thanks......
Rick <---- off to find an a/c shop.

Just annecdotal, but I had my compressor completely apart last Spring. The
only "special" tool (aside from the a/c gas stuff) was a good pair of
internal/external snapring pliers. The clutch itself - to the best of my
memory - didn't even lose the pressure. The seal there is on the shaft at
the front cover that was leaking here, so I wound up doing the whole thing.
The parts costs for all the seals, lube, and R134a was under $75 and it took
me about 6 hours to change everything out. That included a lot of messing
around with the receiver and hose seals. I already had the guage manifold
and a compressor/vacuum setup. My original idea was to grab a duplicate
compressor from the wrecking yard ($35) both as spare parts or maybe as a
potential swap. It also served as a dummy since I had never had one of
those units apart.

You can find the parts diagrams and instructions for those Sanden
compressors online. That should tell you if you can swap the clutch w/o a
major re-charge effort.

I would recommend one more quick test before diving in. Move your tapping
to the low pressure switch rather than the clutch itself. Also, (wearing
safety glasses!) blow out the clutch housing really well. The clutch is
magnetic and subject to dirt and grit. As a final step, when it cuts out,
try shorting the power lead to the clutch to the battery - you may well have
a bad pressure switch or just dirt in the assembly. You won't hurt the
clutch if you use high pressure water to clean out the gunk. The mechanical
clutch should be dirt simple: go, no-go. It should be either good or bad.


lid wrote:

> Well, the third time was the charm.
> I pulled over as soon as the cold air quit and sure enough, the clutch
> had disengaged. So I tapped on everything that the hammer could reach
> but the clutch just never would engage. So I drove on home, 5 minutes
> away, found a screwdriver and used it and the hammer to bump the
> clutch face over in the direction the belt was turning.... bingo. It
> engaged on the first tap and I was right back to having cold air.
> Nice call Mr Bllsht :-)
>
> Now the question is, what to do next. The dealer wants $1000 +/- to
> replace both the clutch and compressor. Almost as much to replace the
> clutch alone. Is a compressor clutch something that a jackleg like me
> can replace without specialized a/c tools and such? OR.... instead of
> the dealer, I think I can get a much better price from an independent
> mechanic who owns a Cherokee of the same vintage as mine. I'm thinkin'
> he's more familiar with it than any other independent guys around
> town. I don't know how much he knows about a/c though.
> Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Rick
>
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:46:04 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>>Since I read your post, it's quit on me twice and in both cases, I
>>opted to keep going as there was not an acceptable place to pull over
>>either time. Plus my destination was less than 5-10 minutes away. But
>>in both cases, it started blowing cold again by the time I had reached
>>where I was going. (aarrgghh!)
>>Decided to pull over immediately next time, no matter what. But so
>>far, there hasn't been a next time. I'm looking forward though, to
>>the third time charm.
>>Rick
>>
>>On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:56:41 -0700, bllsht wrote:
>>>Typical failing clutch symptoms. Easy to check, too. When it stops
>>>working, pull over, leave it running with the A/C on, open the hood
>>>and look at the compressor clutch. If it's engaged, that's not your
>>>problem. If it's not, grab your favorite tool (hammer) and tap the
>>>compressor near the clutch. If it engages, you need a clutch. Pretty
>>>common occurrence on an XJ. Clutch can be changed separately, too.
>>>Jiffy Lube? Wouldn't even let them change my oil...
>>
>>On Fri, 01 Jul 2011 10:13:30 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>>
>>>>My air conditioner has gone flakey on me but the symptoms aren't
>>>>consistent so I haven't been able to get a diagnosis. It blows hot
>>>>and cold.
>>>>
>>>>Usually, when I first turn it on, it blows cold.... for awhile, maybe
>>>>10-15 minutes (or more or less).... then the cold goes away and it
>>>>feels lmore ike outside air blown by the vent fan.
>>>>But if I leave the control on "A/C, it might start blowing cold air
>>>>again after another 10-15 minutes. When I'm driving, I can't hear
>>>>anything turning on/off under the hood nor can I feel anything.
>>>>
>>>>Jiffy Lube guy (who also services A/C) couldn't make it act up when he
>>>>checked it and he guessed it might be hoses freezing up. The
>>>>dealership couldn't make it act up either and they guessed it would be
>>>>the compressor clutch, so best to replace the whole compressor (for
>>>>about $1000). Both Jiffy and dealer told me to bring it back in when
>>>>it's not working. But my crystal ball stopped working years ago and I
>>>>never KNOW when it's going to work and when it's not. It both comes
>>>>and goes with no warning and no regularity.
>>>>
>>>>Anybody want to take a stab at what the problem might be? And better
>>>>yet, an inexpensive way to nurse it along through the summer?
>>>>
>>>>Rick
>>>>HeBeJeepN
>>>>'99 XJ Sport, Selec-Trac, Trac-Lok

--
WHonea

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

hmmm.... looks all sealed up to me. If there's dirt in the housing, I
don't see any way to blow it out of there without taking it apart.
Haven't found the low pressure switch either. So after a quick read of
an online service manual,
http://www.sanden.com/originals/imag...uide_Rev.2.pdf
I've decided this project is beyond my pay grade and the deep south in
July is too damn hot to pinch pennies. So I think I'll dump this
project onto somebody else and just pay da man. I very much appreciate
the comments and pointers I've gotten here though.

By the way, I'm beginning to wonder if you can even buy a clutch
separately from a compressor. Everything I've found online so far for
my model Cherokee comes with the compressor and clutch bundled
together. I found a separate clutch for a different year model but it
cost almost as much as the compressor/clutch combos I've been looking
at.

Rick

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011, Will Honea wrote:
>Just annecdotal, but I had my compressor completely apart last Spring. The
>only "special" tool (aside from the a/c gas stuff) was a good pair of
>internal/external snapring pliers. The clutch itself - to the best of my
>memory - didn't even lose the pressure. The seal there is on the shaft at
>the front cover that was leaking here, so I wound up doing the whole thing.
>The parts costs for all the seals, lube, and R134a was under $75 and it took
>me about 6 hours to change everything out. That included a lot of messing
>around with the receiver and hose seals. I already had the guage manifold
>and a compressor/vacuum setup. My original idea was to grab a duplicate
>compressor from the wrecking yard ($35) both as spare parts or maybe as a
>potential swap. It also served as a dummy since I had never had one of
>those units apart.
>
>You can find the parts diagrams and instructions for those Sanden
>compressors online. That should tell you if you can swap the clutch w/o a
>major re-charge effort.
>
>I would recommend one more quick test before diving in. Move your tapping
>to the low pressure switch rather than the clutch itself. Also, (wearing
>safety glasses!) blow out the clutch housing really well. The clutch is
>magnetic and subject to dirt and grit. As a final step, when it cuts out,
>try shorting the power lead to the clutch to the battery - you may well have
>a bad pressure switch or just dirt in the assembly. You won't hurt the
>clutch if you use high pressure water to clean out the gunk. The mechanical
>clutch should be dirt simple: go, no-go. It should be either good or bad.


HeBeJeepN wrote:

>> Well, the third time was the charm.
>> I pulled over as soon as the cold air quit and sure enough, the clutch
>> had disengaged. So I tapped on everything that the hammer could reach
>> but the clutch just never would engage. So I drove on home, 5 minutes
>> away, found a screwdriver and used it and the hammer to bump the
>> clutch face over in the direction the belt was turning.... bingo. It
>> engaged on the first tap and I was right back to having cold air.
>> Nice call Mr Bllsht :-)
>>
>> Now the question is, what to do next. The dealer wants $1000 +/- to
>> replace both the clutch and compressor. Almost as much to replace the
>> clutch alone. Is a compressor clutch something that a jackleg like me
>> can replace without specialized a/c tools and such? OR.... instead of
>> the dealer, I think I can get a much better price from an independent
>> mechanic who owns a Cherokee of the same vintage as mine. I'm thinkin'
>> he's more familiar with it than any other independent guys around
>> town. I don't know how much he knows about a/c though.
>> Any suggestions appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rick
>>
>> On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:46:04 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>>>Since I read your post, it's quit on me twice and in both cases, I
>>>opted to keep going as there was not an acceptable place to pull over
>>>either time. Plus my destination was less than 5-10 minutes away. But
>>>in both cases, it started blowing cold again by the time I had reached
>>>where I was going. (aarrgghh!)
>>>Decided to pull over immediately next time, no matter what. But so
>>>far, there hasn't been a next time. I'm looking forward though, to
>>>the third time charm.
>>>Rick
>>>
>>>On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:56:41 -0700, bllsht wrote:
>>>>Typical failing clutch symptoms. Easy to check, too. When it stops
>>>>working, pull over, leave it running with the A/C on, open the hood
>>>>and look at the compressor clutch. If it's engaged, that's not your
>>>>problem. If it's not, grab your favorite tool (hammer) and tap the
>>>>compressor near the clutch. If it engages, you need a clutch. Pretty
>>>>common occurrence on an XJ. Clutch can be changed separately, too.
>>>>Jiffy Lube? Wouldn't even let them change my oil...
>>>
>>>On Fri, 01 Jul 2011 10:13:30 -0500, HeBeJeepN wrote:
>>>
>>>>>My air conditioner has gone flakey on me but the symptoms aren't
>>>>>consistent so I haven't been able to get a diagnosis. It blows hot
>>>>>and cold.
>>>>>
>>>>>Usually, when I first turn it on, it blows cold.... for awhile, maybe
>>>>>10-15 minutes (or more or less).... then the cold goes away and it
>>>>>feels lmore ike outside air blown by the vent fan.
>>>>>But if I leave the control on "A/C, it might start blowing cold air
>>>>>again after another 10-15 minutes. When I'm driving, I can't hear
>>>>>anything turning on/off under the hood nor can I feel anything.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jiffy Lube guy (who also services A/C) couldn't make it act up when he
>>>>>checked it and he guessed it might be hoses freezing up. The
>>>>>dealership couldn't make it act up either and they guessed it would be
>>>>>the compressor clutch, so best to replace the whole compressor (for
>>>>>about $1000). Both Jiffy and dealer told me to bring it back in when
>>>>>it's not working. But my crystal ball stopped working years ago and I
>>>>>never KNOW when it's going to work and when it's not. It both comes
>>>>>and goes with no warning and no regularity.
>>>>>
>>>>>Anybody want to take a stab at what the problem might be? And better
>>>>>yet, an inexpensive way to nurse it along through the summer?
>>>>>
>>>>>Rick
>>>>>HeBeJeepN
>>>>>'99 XJ Sport, Selec-Trac, Trac-Lok

PeterD wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 7:56 AM, Scott in Baltimore wrote:
>>>> I'm wondering myself. My car does this exact thing. Blows nice and cold
>>>> for 15 to 20 minutes, then the compressor won't click. The car will
>>>> turn
>>>> on the fans and speed up the engine, but no click and no compression.
>>>
>>> A marginal refrigerant level (low, but just above the low pressure
>>> cutoff) will cause this to happen. The system, when cold has less
>>> pressure overall, and the low pressure switch then cuts off. After the
>>> system warms up (say it sits for a while) it then starts up again.
>>
>>
>> It's not low. It's a 23 oz system and I just put a can and a half in it.
>> It has a real slow leak so I have to fill it every summer.
>
> What do the running pressure gauges show, both high and low side?
>

I saw your message yesterday but I couldn't answer because the AC wouldn't
even kick on when I got home. Today I turned it on a few miles from home
and it worked...right until I packed the car! On someone's advice in this
thread, I took the hose and squirted the clutch top, side and bottom, then
top again. (motor off, of course). It fired right up after that!!!!

So I grabbed my new Harbor Freigh R134A gauge and hooked it up. Readings:

LO/HIGH
28/155 on fresh a minute or so after power up
28/165 on recirc a few minutes later
30/160 after being on recirc for 5 minutes and the air blowing from the
duct closest to the evap was 43 degrees. I'll blast it with compressed air
later when it cools down some from the Texas type weather we have right now!

90 degrees and humidity to match! (actually the NWS says it's 91 & only 43%)
As the temp falls, it will get close to the dew point, so it's a good thing
I have a trail cover for my '97 TJ with a three piece suit on it!

It looks like this except mine is emerald green and spice:
http://www.bestop.com/bestop-product/?p=halftop
(had to put some Jeep related stuff in the Jeep NG!)

As a follow up, I went out to the store tonight and it played well.
I even got at least 40 minutes out of it after getting home and
putting my food away. It got so cold, I was cycling it. 30 some
minutes later, no more click. About 10 minutes later, it decided
to work again. Should I use a 4 oz can of the old style electronics
cleaner on the clutch followed by compressed air. The cleaner is
the stuff that was banned years ago but I found some at a clearance
type store and stocked up.

How come R134a went up from $5/$6 a can to the $15+ it's at now?
Glad I stocked up on that, too!

Scott in Baltimore wrote:

<snip>

Have you checked the relay? Swap it with the fog relay, should be the same size.

Sometimes heat/old-age will cause that bugger to fail.

High/Low limit sensor are also known to fail. Fairly easy to diagnose once the AC stops. You just ohm out the sensor, they both
should be closed. Also fairly easy to replace as they have a valve that lets you unscrew them with the system charged.

With a system that leaks, it is possible (remote, but possible) that enough moisture got in the system couldn't adsorb it. (little
bag in the accumulator). That would cause ice to form and block things up... very rare, only seen it once.

--
DougW

HeBeJeepN wrote:
> hmmm.... looks all sealed up to me. If there's dirt in the housing, I
> don't see any way to blow it out of there without taking it apart.
> Haven't found the low pressure switch either. So after a quick read of
> an online service manual,

Lowside is usually stuck to the top of the accumulator (big can)
Just follow the wires.

As for removing the clutch, that takes a lot of care not to damage
the compressor. Best to let a pro do it, they have the proper tools.


--
DougW