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#1
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156 temperature
Hello,
I think I'm having an issue with the temperature of my 156 1.9 jtd sportwagon. Nomatter how far I drive, the temperature never reaches 90°C. It keeps displaying about 70 °C, sometimes a bit more. I also have the impression that the engine is never really warmed up, especialy when accelerating in 1st en 2nd gear. Should a diesel engine really reach 90 °C or I am a just paranoid? Greets Tom |
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#2
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On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:39:43 +0200, "Alfistagj"
> wrote: >That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary >interior heater. >The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that >slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter. That's exactly what I thought before I got mine. But it heats up more or less just the same as my petrol cars have so no worries. You are correct to point out that they're 'fuel efficient' but you don't mention the Diesel secret which is that it's a more calorific (more energy per litre) fuel than petrol. This should all balance out (more or less) and result in a similar engine temperature profile to petrol. It wouldn't surprise me if heat loss due to inefficiency of combustion was pretty close between petrol and diesel these days too. The only reason I've seen cars with aux cabin heaters is to provide instant heat on startup or for cars that might be expected to visit or come from Scandinavia (or other such cold countries) frequently. I've seen them as options on cars for the UK (petrol ones mostly!) but, it's a bit of a luxury as we very rarely go below -10C and rarely below -5C. These days we rarely even see decent snow either (ask the Scottish Ski companies!). The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops. Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard you are driving! Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!! -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#3
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Dans l'article <R%%1d.1854$L43.90@amstwist00>, "Alfistagj"
>a écrit : >That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary >interior heater. >The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that >slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter. >I guess 70dgr is a normal temperature when the ambient temperatures are not >really summerly and you don't keep asking full power hours after another! Full agree with you, new diesel engine, especialy with "common rail" like JTD and HDI are design to work at low temp, near 70°C. Now a lot af cars are equiped with this auxilary interior heater, even in France witch is not a very cold country in winter. A petrol engine must run near 90°c but not a diesel one. Bruno. |
#4
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:44:13 GMT, "Tom Asselman"
> wrote: >Hello, > >I think I'm having an issue with the temperature of my 156 1.9 jtd >sportwagon. >Nomatter how far I drive, the temperature never reaches 90°C. >It keeps displaying about 70 °C, sometimes a bit more. I also have the >impression that the engine is never really warmed up, especialy when >accelerating in 1st en 2nd gear. > >Should a diesel engine really reach 90 °C or I am a just paranoid? Mine usually sits close to 85°C. On very cold days, the aircon can drive it down to about 70°C. I've never seen it get to 90°C. It is the 2.4 though. -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#5
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On 16-9-2004 10:25, Zathras wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:39:43 +0200, "Alfistagj" > > wrote: > > >>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary >>interior heater. >>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that >>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter. > > > That's exactly what I thought before I got mine. But it heats up more > or less just the same as my petrol cars have so no worries. Well, in my experience the 1.9 JTD heats up _a lot_ slower than a 1.6 TS, in city traffic even more noticeable. > You are correct to point out that they're 'fuel efficient' but you > don't mention the Diesel secret which is that it's a more calorific > (more energy per litre) fuel than petrol. This should all balance out > (more or less) and result in a similar engine temperature profile to > petrol. It wouldn't surprise me if heat loss due to inefficiency of > combustion was pretty close between petrol and diesel these days too. > > The only reason I've seen cars with aux cabin heaters is to provide > instant heat on startup or for cars that might be expected to visit or > come from Scandinavia (or other such cold countries) frequently. I've > seen them as options on cars for the UK (petrol ones mostly!) but, > it's a bit of a luxury as we very rarely go below -10C and rarely > below -5C. These days we rarely even see decent snow either (ask the > Scottish Ski companies!). The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for example. Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-) > The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in > cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm > engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I > do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise > unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan > control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some > chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting > a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens > of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch > it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops. > Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard > you are driving! Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine. Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con. For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the thermostat works correctly. > Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of > Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!! Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable. Arjan |
#6
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:53:30 +0200, Arjan Renting >
wrote: <snip> >The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be >compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for >example. If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those. >Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and >slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold >engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the >interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a >little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-) > >> The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in >> cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm >> engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I >> do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise >> unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan >> control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some >> chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting >> a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens >> of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch >> it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops. >> Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard >> you are driving! > >Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not >directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the >radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine. >Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con. ? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to '156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and cooling). >For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the >engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the >thermostat works correctly. > >> Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of >> Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!! > >Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable. I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at any time of the year. -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#7
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Now I am confused...
I'm hearing several versions here, and my dealer says that my thermostat needs to be replaced and that my engine should be at 90°C... Will the replacement of my thermostat be a zero operation? Thanks guys for al the interesting threads ! "DesmaisonLCM" > wrote in message ... > Dans l'article <R%%1d.1854$L43.90@amstwist00>, "Alfistagj" > >a écrit : > >>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary >>interior heater. >>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that >>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter. >>I guess 70dgr is a normal temperature when the ambient temperatures are >>not >>really summerly and you don't keep asking full power hours after another! > > Full agree with you, new diesel engine, especialy with "common rail" like > JTD > and HDI are design to work at low temp, near 70°C. > Now a lot af cars are equiped with this auxilary interior heater, even in > France witch is not a very cold country in winter. > A petrol engine must run near 90°c but not a diesel one. > > Bruno. > |
#8
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:18:56 GMT, "Tom Asselman"
> wrote: >Now I am confused... > >I'm hearing several versions here, and my dealer says that my thermostat >needs to be replaced and that my engine should be at 90°C... That's my experience too. Not quite 90°C but close. Oh..and just how accurate is my (or your) temperature gauge anyway? >Will the replacement of my thermostat be a zero operation? Only if it's not faulty! ;-) If I were in your position I'd change the stat first anyway. <snip> -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#9
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On 16-9-2004 18:53, Zathras wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:53:30 +0200, Arjan Renting > > wrote: > > <snip> > >>The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be >>compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for >>example. > > > If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the > mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those. Or on petrol. >>Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and >>slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold >>engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the >>interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a >>little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-) >> >> >>>The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in >>>cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm >>>engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I >>>do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise >>>unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan >>>control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some >>>chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting >>>a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens >>>of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch >>>it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops. >>>Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard >>>you are driving! >> >>Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not >>directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the >>radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine. >>Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con. > > > ? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin > and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine > coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found > that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to > '156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and > cooling). Well you were referring to driving with and without the air con on a certain day with cool weather. I was actually wondering what mechanism triggers the effect that you mentioned. The air con itself doesn't take any heat from the cooling system (and because the outside temperature of the air is low the air con doesn't have to work very hard). Maybe the climate control will add some hot air from the heater to the interior to maintain the temperature? I don't have any explanation for the effect you mentioned. My 147 JTD always stays at a 90 deg C no matter what the outside temperature is or what the performance is that she has to deliver. On my previous cars it was always variable between the 70 and 105 deg C. I don't know if it is just a adaptation in the meter, another type of thermostat or a different point where the engine temperature is measured, or that the engine really stays at 90 deg C all the way. >>For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the >>engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the >>thermostat works correctly. >> >> >>>Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of >>>Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!! >> >>Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable. > > > I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at > any time of the year. I had it twice that the thermostat was not closing anymore all the way, no trouble in the summer but in autumn it was noticeable. When you start to notice that the heater is not able to give some extra push you mostly have an problem with the thermostat. Arjan |
#10
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:10:25 +0200, Arjan Renting >
wrote: >On 16-9-2004 18:53, Zathras wrote: <Snip> >> If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the >> mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those. > >Or on petrol. Indeed..and diesel powered heaters in some cases too (usually trucks/vans etc). <Snip> >> ? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin >> and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine >> coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found >> that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to >> '156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and >> cooling). <Snip> > I don't have any explanation for the effect >you mentioned. Easy to test yourself. Drive the car until the temp is 90. Stop and leave the car idling. Turn the A/C (climate controls..whatever you like to call them) temp to max. Turn the fan to max. Watch how quick the engine water temperature falls. 5 minutes should be enough for a significant change. This technique could often get you home in the old days if you broke a fan belt. It's VERY effective at cooling the engine. >My 147 JTD always stays at a 90 deg C no matter what the outside >temperature is or what the performance is that she has to deliver. On my >previous cars it was always variable between the 70 and 105 deg C. I >don't know if it is just a adaptation in the meter, another type of >thermostat or a different point where the engine temperature is >measured, or that the engine really stays at 90 deg C all the way. If you suddenly drive very hard, the engine must produce more heat and heat up the water before the thermostat can react. It does appear quite well controlled on the 156 but I can still see the temperature rise a little within a mile of booting it. Falls back quite quickly when I slow down and often to below where I started due to the delayed reactions of the thermostat. Your car could have a very heavily damped meter (Alfa meters seem to have character of their own). I don't have enough experience of the 147 to comment accurately on your specific case. <Snip> >> I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at >> any time of the year. > >I had it twice that the thermostat was not closing anymore all the way, >no trouble in the summer but in autumn it was noticeable. When you start >to notice that the heater is not able to give some extra push you mostly >have an problem with the thermostat. My (non Alfa!) experience has only been where the car doesn't heat up very much at all (temp gauge at 1/4 expected) or car has overheated. Not a partial fail like you seem to have had which, I agree, would be as you say. -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
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