U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles

On 2012-04-13, jim beam > wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 06:10 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> C. E. > wrote:
>>> The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>>> enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>>> at the same time.
>>
>> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
>> fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
>> engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
>> all car manufacturers.
>
> heh, true.
>
> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
> costs them nothing.

Why am I not surprised you believe in the pinto myth?

http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/T...Pinto_Case.pdf

You'll see where the dollars per life calculation comes from. Hint: it's
not Ford.

On 2012-04-13, Jim Yanik > wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in :
>
>> On 04/13/2012 07:40 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> C. E. > wrote:
>>>>> The override technology, which many automakers already make
>>>>> available, enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and
>>>>> accelerator are depressed at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If
>>>> that fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to
>>>> decouple the engine from the wheels. I advocate these new
>>>> technologies be adopted by all car manufacturers.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, I suggest a device called a "seat belt" which will
>>>> prevent drivers and passengers from being thrown forward in case of
>>>> an accident, and I am currently applying for a patent on a device
>>>> called a "windshield wiper" which may make it possible for the
>>>> driver to see even in the rain. --scott
>>>>
>>>
>>> IMO,automatic transmissions are responsible for most if not all of
>>> the "unintended accelleration" incidents,and restricting automatics
>>> to handicapped physically incapable of operating a stick would also
>>> get most of the lousy drivers off the roads.
>>> they would be too incompetent to drive with a stickshift tranny.
>>> Further,it would keep their minds and hands too busy for cellphone
>>> and makeup distractions.
>>>
>>
>> whoa. that might be fine for you turnip truck drivers, but anyone who
>> crawls about in city traffic won't thank you for that. myself
>> included.
>>
>>
>
> get rid of auto trannys and you won't be crawling about in city traffic.
> all the sloths and clueless will be gone. and the remainder will have their
> attention on DRIVING,not on other things,so traffic will move faster.

Even if numbers of vehicles on the road do not decline, without the
automatic transmission being in the majority people will change their
driving habits making such conditions less common. People avoid
discomfort and will adjust their driving appropiately.

On Apr 14, 12:48*am, Brent > wrote:
> On 2012-04-13, Jim Yanik > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > jim beam > wrote :
>
> >> On 04/13/2012 07:40 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> >>> (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
> :
>
> >>>> C. E. > *wrote:
> >>>>> The override technology, which many automakers already make
> >>>>> available, enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and
> >>>>> accelerator are depressed at the same time.
>
> >>>> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. *If
> >>>> that fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to
> >>>> decouple the engine from the wheels. *I advocate these new
> >>>> technologies be adopted by all car manufacturers.
>
> >>>> In addition, I suggest a device called a "seat belt" which will
> >>>> prevent drivers and passengers from being thrown forward in case of
> >>>> an accident, and I am currently applying for a patent on a device
> >>>> called a "windshield wiper" which may make it possible for the
> >>>> driver to see even in the rain. --scott
>
> >>> IMO,automatic transmissions are responsible for most if not all of
> >>> the "unintended accelleration" incidents,and restricting automatics
> >>> to handicapped physically incapable of operating a stick would also
> >>> get most of the lousy drivers off the roads.
> >>> they would be too incompetent to drive with a stickshift tranny.
> >>> Further,it would keep their minds and hands too busy for cellphone
> >>> and makeup distractions.
>
> >> whoa. *that might be fine for you turnip truck drivers, but anyone who
> >> crawls about in city traffic won't thank you for that. *myself
> >> included.
>
> > get rid of auto trannys and you won't be crawling about in city traffic..
> > all the sloths and clueless will be gone. and the remainder will have their
> > attention on DRIVING,not on other things,so traffic will move faster.
>
> Even if numbers of vehicles on the road do not decline, without the
> automatic transmission being in the majority people will change their
> driving habits making such conditions less common. People avoid
> discomfort and will adjust their driving appropiately.

Dream on. I was driving back when standard trannys were the norm.
Only change has been the increase in traffic and far, far better
roads.

There will still be the same percentage of clueless drivers.

Harry K

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "Noone" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "N8N" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" > wrote:
>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>
>>> nate
>>> ##################################
>>>
>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>> driving".
>
> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know where
> you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left foot brake
> and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill. [indeed, that's why
> the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on automatics - in case you
> hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the stooooopidity envisaged above.
>
Holding a vehicle on a hill does not use full throttle acceleration, is uses
the light balance of gas pedal while a) the brake pedal is pressed or b) for
manual transmissions, while the clutch is held just at the friction point.
Then the brake (or clutch) gets slowly released to start moving up the hill,
and even the gas pedal may be let up some small amount.

Properly done, the vehicle does not jackrabbit start. Improperly done--like
two of the local bus drivers have done when driving five speed automatic
transmission New Flyer 40 foot CNG buses--then either the vehicle
accelerates quicker than intended (like a small launch but the tires do not
squeal), or the transmission gets slammed then the vehicle accelerates even
slower than intended.

Another non-performance driving use of both gas and brake at the same time
is dragging the brakes when they get too wet during a significant rainstorm.
That also does not use full gas and full brake at the same time.

>
>>
>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>
> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
> position. absolutely no way.
>
More than likely, the electronic throttle position sensor (more or less like
a potentiometer), will develop dead zones. Remember, the Lexus accident in
San Diego mentioned pedal stuck down due to a possible floor mat issue,
which means at some point, the gas pedal likely went full down. I'd guess
either because it was pressed full down during passing, or else maybe due to
some cruise control issue caused the pedal to fully drop to the floor.

Why do I suggest possibly a cruise control issue would have dropped the gas
pedal to the floor? Many years ago, I got to drive one of those old classic
Chevrolet Caprice Classic cars (sorry, forgot the year of the car). Turns
out the cruise control had a major malfunction--get the car up to 35mph or
more, hit the cruise control button, gas pedal dropped all the way to the
floor and the vehicle kept accelerating past the intended set point. Yes,
pressing the brake did cancel the cruise control. Another option would have
been to move the steering column shifter to neutral if the brake pedal did
not cancel cruise control. Doubtful that the left pedal parking brake could
have held the vehicle still accelerating with that much power.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "C. E. White" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> Christina Rogers
>>>
>>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>>>
>>> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
>>> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
>>> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
>>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
>>> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
>>> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
>>> crashes.
>>>
>> [snip...]
>>
>> This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
>> when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>>
>> But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
>> overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
>> is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
>
> absolutely not. brakes easily outperform the engine on almost any car,
> and /definitely/ on any car post about 1950.
>
Really? I faded the brakes on a 2002 Nissan Sentra, while going down a two
mile steady downhill grade. Factory stock brake pads, obviously with some
use and not just newly installed, but they faded. The vehicle still slowed
as I watched the downhill speed, but I could smell pads burning at some
point and slowing was definitely less effective. Applying the brakes too
much or too hard? Maybe. Rotors needed to be resurfaced after that?
Probably, there was some judder afterwards. After pads fade? The next step
is overheated rotors, then eventually boiled brake fluid.

I don't think the Lexus crash occurred on flat land either, there is a
downhill section just before where the vehicle flew off the road and
crashed.
>
>> And
>> there were reports of the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had
>> witnesses reporting brake rotors glowing red as if they were on fire.
>> Some news reports state the brakes were on fire.
>>
>> Link to one such story:
>>
>> Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
>> http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/ksw...,2732751.story
>
> what kind of troll bridge have you been hiding under this last couple of
> years? that "story" has been analyzed by the nhtsa no less, and they find
> no evidence of vehicle fault, only driver fault.
>
>
If rotors were reported as glowing/on fire, the brakes definitely did not
overpower the engine in that vehicle. If the vehicle acclerated to over
100mph with the driver saying no brakes, then the brakes did not overpower
the engine in that vehicle. If the vehicle crashed at such high speed that
the crash was fatal, then the brakes did not overpower the engine in that
vehicle. No matter what theoriticals engineers and others involved in
analyzing the accident may come up with, the brakes did not overpower the
engine in that vehicle. QED.

>>
>> Folks, this isn't nanny state stuff. Computer controlled cars with
>> electronic components should not be runaway machines. There should
>> always be an override even if it's a big red manual press plunger that
>> mechanically--not electrically--cuts power.
>
> but there already is. in fact, there are three of them.
>
> 1. the brake pedal. modern brakes easily overpower any modern car engine,
> even at full throttle.
>
Disproven by the Lexus crash incident in San Diego. It only takes on to
disprove the theory. 911 call transscripts showed at one point is was said
"No brakes".

> 2. the transmission can always be mechanically shifted to neutral.
>
Yes, but given a more complex shifter layout it may require more than just a
simple upward push to neutral. If the Lexus shifter was in sport mode,
pushing just up is +, or an upshift. Shifting to neutral requires moving
left out of the sport mode gate, then up to neutral.

> 3. the ignition switch will always work - if you bother to read the
> owner's manual as to how to operate it.
>
But if the ignition switch is a push button, it requires a PC-like hold to
cut off the engine. Not something everyone is going to just remember right
away, if their vehicle is continuing to accelerate.

> since you're simply regurgitating the bull**** that came off the steps of
> the whitehouse three years ago and that in turn has been dismissed as
> simply driver error by every technical analysis of the vehicles allegedly
> involved, you've either been living on another planet in the interim, or
> you're an astroturfer trying to stir the pot - just like the originator of
> this story.
>
Astroturfer? No, I don't think so. Everything else I'm not going to respond
to, for there are many errors in engineering, why wouldn't there be errors
in a technical analysis.

Did someone actually stick the Lexus pedal in the same make and model, get
it over 100 mph while the pedal remained stuck, and then hold the brakes
until they either stopped the vehicle or lost all braking ability? Did they
attempt to reproduce the issue as closely as possible (i.e., obviously don't
launch off the road and crash)? No, I don't think they did that. Therefore
the technical analysis is still, in my opinion, quite incomplete.

"Brent" > wrote in message
...

[snip...]

> Even if numbers of vehicles on the road do not decline, without the
> automatic transmission being in the majority people will change their
> driving habits making such conditions less common. People avoid
> discomfort and will adjust their driving appropiately.
>
Brent I used to manually shift the automatic transmission in a 2002 Nissan
Sentra that I used to drive.

On surface streets--I'd press the button on the shifter to enable overdrive
off and have the shifter at 1, then I would shift up to the next gear (2)
just before the RPMs would allow the shift, then shift up again for the next
gear (D, with overdrive off) just before the RPMs would allow a shift, and
then the final shift to overdrive was a pushbutton to enable overdrive.
While slowing down on surface streets, I'd also downshift the automatic
transmission from D to 2 to 1 to also use mild engine braking so while I was
still braking, it was less wear and tear on the brakes.

Freeway driving usually worked best just leaving the shifter in D with
overdrive enabled, and letting the computer do the shifting.

It was the head gasket that finally blew and damaged the engine at over
190,000 miles, not the transmission.

(Top post replying...)

Why would someone call 911 if they were going to commit a murder/suicide?
They would have just done it and the news would have reported a mystery high
speed crash.

I'll ask again, as I did in reply to someone else's post.

Did anyone repeat the near-exact scenario?

Same make and model of vehicle, stick the gas pedal under the floor mat (but
deliberately to reproduce the scenario), and try to stop the car as the
vehicle keeps increasing speed. Does the vehicle come to an eventual stop,
or do they brakes eventual fail to stop the car altogether.

Use a different stretch of road, with a similar downhill slant before
levelling out, but does not end up with a point where the vehicle will
launch off the road. Don't shift to neutral or shut off the engine until the
vehicle has stopped or the vehicle is unable to be stopped. If the vehicle
is stopped, then of course unstick the pedal, shift to neutral and shut off
the engine. If the vehicle fails to stop, the scenario has been replicated.

Report the findings, get the ECU reports, see what they contain and don't
contain.

If no part of the investigation did that, the near exact scenario, then the
investigation is still incomplete. Replicating the scenario might also help
for determining what future override systems may have to do.

"Harry K" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 13, 8:16 pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "C. E. White" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
> >> vehicles
>
> >> Christina Rogers
>
> >> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
> >> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>
> >> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
> >> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
> >> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
> >> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
> >> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
> >> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
> >> crashes.
>
> > [snip...]
>
> > This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
> > when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>
> > But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
> > overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
> > is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
>
> absolutely not. brakes easily outperform the engine on almost any car,
> and /definitely/ on any car post about 1950.
>
> > And
> > there were reports of the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had
> > witnesses reporting brake rotors glowing red as if they were on fire.
> > Some news reports state the brakes were on fire.
>
> > Link to one such story:
>
> > Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
> >http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/ksw...,2732751.story
>
> what kind of troll bridge have you been hiding under this last couple of
> years? that "story" has been analyzed by the nhtsa no less, and they
> find no evidence of vehicle fault, only driver fault.
>
>
>
> > Folks, this isn't nanny state stuff. Computer controlled cars with
> > electronic components should not be runaway machines. There should
> > always be an override even if it's a big red manual press plunger that
> > mechanically--not electrically--cuts power.
>
> but there already is. in fact, there are three of them.
>
> 1. the brake pedal. modern brakes easily overpower any modern car
> engine, even at full throttle.
>
> 2. the transmission can always be mechanically shifted to neutral.
>
> 3. the ignition switch will always work - if you bother to read the
> owner's manual as to how to operate it.
>
> since you're simply regurgitating the bull**** that came off the steps
> of the whitehouse three years ago and that in turn has been dismissed as
> simply driver error by every technical analysis of the vehicles
> allegedly involved, you've either been living on another planet in the
> interim, or you're an astroturfer trying to stir the pot - just like the
> originator of this story.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum

I am still convinced that that one was no accident but rather a
murder, suicide. Too much does not add up to other than deliberate
action.

jim beam > wrote in :

> On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
><brevity>
>>>
>> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
>> yank it real hard!
>
> no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out and
> bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
>
>
AMEN!
and no jumping to a different gov't job.
no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
No "career" in gov't for legislators.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

jim beam > wrote in :

> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "Noone" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "N8N" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ... On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" >
>>> wrote:
>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>
>>> nate
>>> ##################################
>>>
>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>> driving".
>
> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know
> where you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left
> foot brake and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill.
> [indeed, that's why the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on
> automatics - in case you hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the
> stooooopidity envisaged above.
>
>
>>
>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>
> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
> position. absolutely no way.
>
>

if you need to hillhold,that is what the handbrake is for.
Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On 04/14/2012 12:15 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim > wrote in :
>
>> On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
>> <brevity>
>>>>
>>> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
>>> yank it real hard!
>>
>> no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out and
>> bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
>>
>>
> AMEN!
> and no jumping to a different gov't job.
> no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
> No "career" in gov't for legislators.
>

and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with
lobbying jobs and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door
between "regulators" and the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers
literally trillions of dollars.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum